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Chris Houlding United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 929 Dogs 10 / Races 3 21 Mar 2014 00:03
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Just what is the use of the Greyhound Data points system when considering the success of a stud dog? Many low grade dogs seem to get awarded points whilst other Open class offspring don't. Is there any explanation because I am baffled. I am copying/pasting one such dog as an example only (no criticism of the stud dog before anyone takes offence)It leads to misleading data and false ratings for both the runners and the stud dog.
Ardera Maureen 31 AUG 2013 Henlow 460/503 GR A10 6D T4 3.90 1st SnLd,LftClr 3.0 3/1
That's 3 points for winning an A10 race.
Unfortunately there are many many similar examples that serve to illustrate the same problem. Can anyone shed some light on why this is occurring.
Wayne Osullivan Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2414 Dogs 3 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 00:49
I raised this topic on another thread before and was deleted for being "off topic"....but I have long believed that UK/Irish dogs are getting rewarded points for races that by Australian standards are definitely not "Top Races".
This is what I said.....
"UK/Irish dogs seem to consistently "rate" higher than Aussie dogs on GD and I believe there is a gross misinterpretation of what constitutes a "top race" over there ..... and by association "top offspring".
Look at a dog like Tyrur Lee versus Trewly Special.
Trewly Special competed in TEN Group Finals and won a Group One, ran 2nd and 3rd in two more, Ran 2nd in a Group 2....yet he rates lower than TL who only made 4 Group races...winning a Group 1 and a Group 2 with no other placings.
Also....UK/Irish race results are much more up to date than Australian dogs on GD (credit to the GD members responsible). A lot of Aus dogs would rate higher and be in the "top dogs" list if their race records were up to date."
Hopefully that post is now "on-topic"???
Dave Lonergan Ireland (Verified User) Posts 3410 Dogs 18 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 02:44
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listen a very easier example is look at the top off spring of cabra cool....yathzee and jazz fusion nowhere near derby level or ever ran in a classic the likes derby.laurels etc,,,their highest ratings are 110 and 112..... yathzee was a sprinter.... how are they rated higher then Dragon Shield who ran in derby,laurels ,,st.leger etc has 11 races ran with higher then either the two mentioned and more then 1/2 second faster over 525...and rating of 133...beat the Top dogs... data knows theres a flaw and have they have been discussing it...but been 12 months at least now,,,common sense says Dragon Shield is his top son so common sense says their ranking system should show it
Dave Gregory United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 282 Dogs 1 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 03:59
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What's distorting the lower grade UK dogs is the Owner's Bonus series.
Great initiative for Owners - a graded two runs stakes for any grade, with the winner's money for the Final 500 (so scoring GD points). This gives the lower grade dogs a chance to pick up a decent prize.
I guess that the A10 dog you quote won one of these finals, and so scored points for a modest performance in terms of time recorded.
Wayne Osullivan Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2414 Dogs 3 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 06:49
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Dave Gregory wrote:
What's distorting the lower grade UK dogs is the Owner's Bonus series.
Great initiative for Owners - a graded two runs stakes for any grade, with the winner's money for the Final 500 (so scoring GD points). This gives the lower grade dogs a chance to pick up a decent prize.
I guess that the A10 dog you quote won one of these finals, and so scored points for a modest performance in terms of time recorded.
Which is not a bad thing imo. but its like what a few well known people (both are often at logger heads on here) said to me if you want to get a true reflection of a dog then watch its race videos.
Zak Brcic Australia (Verified User) Posts 834 Dogs 8 / Races 5 21 Mar 2014 09:39
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I was snooping thru the Top Sires over the past 5 years I'd like to use Gun Law Osti as example CLICK HERE Which shows 120 points & a total of 55 runners. Yet I go to his top offspring which has no pups listed beyond 1999 am I reading this wrong? or are they completely different points???
Zak
Dave Lonergan Ireland (Verified User) Posts 3410 Dogs 18 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 15:01
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Zak Brcic wrote:
I was snooping thru the Top Sires over the past 5 years I'd like to use Gun Law Osti as example CLICK HERE Which shows 120 points & a total of 55 runners. Yet I go to his top offspring which has no pups listed beyond 1999 am I reading this wrong? or are they completely different points???
Zak
i'd say its a typo...or maybe different points perhaps some v sort of stud pts?...brett lee him self has 168 pts as a runner....so must be something wrong somewhere
Werner Scholz Germany (Team Member) Posts 2370 Dogs 265083 / Races 2011739 21 Mar 2014 16:01
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Zak,
how many offspring has Gun Law Osti registered in AU stud books? I guess he has more than the 484 listed on GD.
Are we missing a bit of support from AU?
//Werner
Maureen Day United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1246 Dogs 4 / Races 4 21 Mar 2014 17:14
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Dave Gregory wrote:
What's distorting the lower grade UK dogs is the Owner's Bonus series.
Great initiative for Owners - a graded two runs stakes for any grade, with the winner's money for the Final 500 (so scoring GD points). This gives the lower grade dogs a chance to pick up a decent prize.
I guess that the A10 dog you quote won one of these finals, and so scored points for a modest performance in terms of time recorded.
Spot On Dave. I have a dog that won an A5 Owners Bonus Final and got 3 points but what I don't understand is why he later got a further 2 points for winning a one off graded race.
Does anyone know if there is anything that explains how, why and when these points are awarded?
Werner Scholz Germany (Team Member) Posts 2370 Dogs 265083 / Races 2011739 21 Mar 2014 17:54
Maureen Day United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1246 Dogs 4 / Races 4 21 Mar 2014 18:29
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Many thanks Werner.
It clearly shows "we give only points for the FINALs of Group and Feature races" yet one of my dogs has been awarded 2 points for a standard, run of the mill, graded race - I guess an error which I will report.
Werner Scholz Germany (Team Member) Posts 2370 Dogs 265083 / Races 2011739 21 Mar 2014 18:33
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I've checked your error report
If you read the file for getting points you will see that there are also points for the quarter best times.
Your dog get the 2 points for his 2nd best time. This maybe will change if another dog will beat that time to the end of this quarter and that means your dog will Loose the points.
Hope that helps
//Werner
Maureen Day United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1246 Dogs 4 / Races 4 21 Mar 2014 18:36
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Dalsha Darkness, and I have just completed an error report for his last race on 15 March.
Maureen Day United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1246 Dogs 4 / Races 4 21 Mar 2014 18:39
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Werner Scholz wrote:
I've checked your error report
If you read the file for getting points you will see that there are also points for the quarter best times.
Your dog get the 2 points for his 2nd best time. This maybe will change if another dog will beat that time to the end of this quarter and that means your dog will Loose the points.
Hope that helps
//Werner
I did notice that Werner but it also shows that the points are only added after the end of the quarter?
I have just rechecked the race and the points have now been deleted.
Thanks for your assistance Werner.
Raymond Thompson United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 254 Dogs 40 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 18:40
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I never take any notice of a stud dogs points since the owners bonus series was introduced I think a far better system is calculating how many offspring are rated over 100
Werner Scholz Germany (Team Member) Posts 2370 Dogs 265083 / Races 2011739 21 Mar 2014 18:49
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For all to read how it works:
2) To measure the fastest dogs we give points for Best Times of a Quarter, Best Times of a Year and for Track Records. All these points are given independently of the grade of the race. A real fast time in a graded race will get points when it matches our rules.If a dog could get points in the same race for the competition (Group or Feature Race) and Best Times and Track Record, then he will get only the highest points for either competition or times, but not the sum. 2a) How we calculate points for Best Times of a Quarter? We calculate quarterly, because the track and weather conditions change and the best dog in a difficult quarter should get points, too. Since December 2006, we calculate the points for the Best Times only at the end of a quarter. Before, we calculated on a daily basis and had too many complaints when dogs lost points because other dogs run faster. Depending on how many dogs run on a track in a certain distance per quarter, some of the fastest dogs in this quarter will receive points.The idea is that not the number of races, but the number of different runners is the benchmark for contest. If always the same dozen of dogs run a thousand races, the number of races certainly is not a benchmark for competition. With the 'number of different runners' it is possible to compare US tracks with up to 5500 races over one distance p.a. with other countries. If a very low number of dogs run on a track then no dog will get points. The Best Times of a Quarter get two points. How many different dogs run on a track in that distance in a quarter? less than 50 - NO quarterly points are given less than 150 - the FASTEST run will get quarterly points less than 300 - the TWO fastest runs will get quarterly points less than 500 - the THREE fastest runs will get quarterly points more than 500 - the FOUR fastest runs will get quarterly points
Chris Houlding United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 929 Dogs 10 / Races 3 21 Mar 2014 19:06
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I think that looking at the number of offspring with a rating over 100 is a good idea. I have been working out percentages for stud dogs by ignoring all offspring with less than 5 points which seems to give a fairly accurate indication in my view of the ability of the stud dog. On the negative side of things the younger stud dogs are disadvantaged as their offspring haven't had time to acquire sufficient points. As an example when I last calculated various sires using this basis Daves Mentor - 6.90 Headbound - 6.67 Royal Impact - 6.06 Hondo Black - 5.70 Westmead Hawk - 5.07 Kinloch Brae - 3.5 College Causeway - 3.38 I appreciate this is by no means a scientific way of measuring the worth of a stud dog and that there are many other aspects to consider but I have found it useful and far more accurate in my view than the GD ratings.
Dave Lonergan Ireland (Verified User) Posts 3410 Dogs 18 / Races 0 21 Mar 2014 19:08
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raymond thompson wrote:
I never take any notice of a stud dogs points since the owners bonus series was introduced I think a far better system is calculating how many offspring are rated over 100
I been doing same since the system in places is not a true reflection of the dog himself
gonna try and keep it simples...times and ratings.....I cant go by group1 or feature or AAO...mean little...I mean THE derby...is now a feature.....the laurels and st.leger are AA0....I mean all these ting mean something when researching a dog.....if a dog does 29.00 in the St.leger and 29.00 in A9...the ratings are the same
Zak Brcic Australia (Verified User) Posts 834 Dogs 8 / Races 5 21 Mar 2014 21:04
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Werner Scholz wrote:
Zak,
how many offspring has Gun Law Osti registered in AU stud books? I guess he has more than the 484 listed on GD.
Are we missing a bit of support from AU?
//Werner
By GRV fast track Gun Law Osti has had no litters since 1999 with a total of 537 pups whelped I didn't bother checking on how many named as it shouldn't make a difference for the past five years stats. I'd need to check a stud book to verify but one would expect the website to be up to date.
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