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Wal Simmons Australia (Verified User) Posts 244 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Jun 2016 02:41
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Good article. Serious food for thought!
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 07 Jun 2016 05:13
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WAL SIMMONS wrote:
Good article. Serious food for thought!
I am glad you found some food for thought Wal ...out of the 237 lookers you were the first to post . Personally i love this stuff and its now just a matter of googling the right words and all kinds of topics can be found .
Wal Simmons Australia (Verified User) Posts 244 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Jun 2016 09:31
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kevin wright wrote:
WAL SIMMONS wrote:
Good article. Serious food for thought!
I am glad you found some food for thought Wal ...out of the 237 lookers you were the first to post . Personally i love this stuff and its now just a matter of googling the right words and all kinds of topics can be found .
I also found this one to be a very good read as well ....Be warned you need a good hour to read this .. EXTERNAL LINK
Haven't read the second one (yet) - but it seems to me that brackett and institute are at odds with each other. My initial thoughts were that the breeding in show dogs involves much more inbreeding than say in greyhounds. Sons to mothers/ fathers to daughters etc. This sort of inbreeding will reduce the genetic diversity but also increase the likelihood of deleterious genes. Some of brackets quotes: Brackett understood the value of using quality dogs that were related to each other. He believed that out-crossing was the least desirable method because it introduced new genes into his pedigrees, which in turn produced differences and genetic variations among the offspring. The formula Brackett preferred concentrated genes in a pedigree. Surely this is the root of the dobermann problem. And perhaps why Wheeler has gone strongly American outcross lately with great success.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 07 Jun 2016 11:19
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WAL SIMMONS wrote:
kevin wright wrote:
WAL SIMMONS wrote:
Good article. Serious food for thought!
I am glad you found some food for thought Wal ...out of the 237 lookers you were the first to post . Personally i love this stuff and its now just a matter of googling the right words and all kinds of topics can be found .
I also found this one to be a very good read as well ....Be warned you need a good hour to read this .. EXTERNAL LINK
Haven't read the second one (yet) - but it seems to me that brackett and institute are at odds with each other. My initial thoughts were that the breeding in show dogs involves much more inbreeding than say in greyhounds. Sons to mothers/ fathers to daughters etc. This sort of inbreeding will reduce the genetic diversity but also increase the likelihood of deleterious genes. Some of brackets quotes: Brackett understood the value of using quality dogs that were related to each other. He believed that out-crossing was the least desirable method because it introduced new genes into his pedigrees, which in turn produced differences and genetic variations among the offspring. The formula Brackett preferred concentrated genes in a pedigree. Surely this is the root of the dobermann problem. And perhaps why Wheeler has gone strongly American outcross lately with great success.
Yes Wal Dobermans Rottweilers German Shepherds all now today look far different than what they used to look like 40 years ago because of the Show Breeder destroying the actual make up about what makes the breed what it is and what it used to be like was more robust and with far less problems that each of those breeds are today and the hip problems alone is a nightmare ..
I guess we look to mother nature and how a lot of each Breed of either Canine or feline pushes away young Males for a reason and thats genetic diversity taking care of it self the way mother nature intended it to be .
Mickey McLennan Australia (Verified User) Posts 73 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Jun 2016 13:40
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A lot of factors are different from dobes, other purebreds and the racing greyhound. Unless they can isolate the genes causing DCM fairly quickly a lot of breeds are on the doomed list including my own - Great Danes. If a greyhound can't run fast most of the time it isn't bred. The show greyhound is a totally different animal from the racing grey and therein lies the problem. Once you introduce the showring (now only a beauty contest) into the equation nothing will change. The old saying "A pedigree is only as good as the honesty of the breeder" says it all. The days where the dog had to catch the family dinner went out before Macca's, etc. and now it is all about how pretty it is or as it is now called, the generic show dog (forget form and function). This very article is why we have walked away from the show world (only 5 danes left) and hope to enjoy my second love, the greyhound. The one thing that should worry ALL greyhound breeders is the abundance of cryptorchids and monorchids. If these dogs continue to be used at stud the greyhound industry will eventually breed itself into a corner. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with the g/h (heard of a couple who have dropped dead) compared to all the other purebreds, but please if you have a g/h which has bloated do not breed with it as bloat/torsion is familial and all you are doing is inviting more heartbreak into your home. Can't speak for the american racing greyhound but a lot of the problems in the Great Dane trace back to the states. McGreevy is, from what I have read, anti purebred. Thanks for putting the article up Kevin, education is the basis of any good breeder of dogs.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 07 Jun 2016 19:59
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Mickey McLennan wrote:
A lot of factors are different from dobes, other purebreds and the racing greyhound. Unless they can isolate the genes causing DCM fairly quickly a lot of breeds are on the doomed list including my own - Great Danes. If a greyhound can't run fast most of the time it isn't bred. The show greyhound is a totally different animal from the racing grey and therein lies the problem. Once you introduce the showring (now only a beauty contest) into the equation nothing will change. The old saying "A pedigree is only as good as the honesty of the breeder" says it all. The days where the dog had to catch the family dinner went out before Macca's, etc. and now it is all about how pretty it is or as it is now called, the generic show dog (forget form and function). This very article is why we have walked away from the show world (only 5 danes left) and hope to enjoy my second love, the greyhound. The one thing that should worry ALL greyhound breeders is the abundance of cryptorchids and monorchids. If these dogs continue to be used at stud the greyhound industry will eventually breed itself into a corner. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with the g/h (heard of a couple who have dropped dead) compared to all the other purebreds, but please if you have a g/h which has bloated do not breed with it as bloat/torsion is familial and all you are doing is inviting more heartbreak into your home. Can't speak for the american racing greyhound but a lot of the problems in the Great Dane trace back to the states. McGreevy is, from what I have read, anti purebred. Thanks for putting the article up Kevin, education is the basis of any good breeder of dogs.
Hi Mick Great that also share a passion for the breed and bloodlines . Yes you are correct the Great Dane is also on the endangered list and to see so many Pure Bred dogs over 11 years at my Boarding Kennel and Cattery that came in with Genetic Faults and the amount of pure bred dogs that required medication every day also seemed like a growing trend . Isn't it great now that we have frozen semen from every line from around the World now pumping through a majority of some of the best dogs racing today in Australia alone .
I have been lucky to of been able to Get my two Sires Paddy and Harry registered World Wide on the Show Breeding scene as well as the race track and i hope to see My boys blood pumping through those Show Breeders Kennels all over Europe and this also is a very special thing the happen for the SHOW greyhound breed now and into the future .
As per the rules of GD i am the stud master of PW and SA .......and i apologize for bringing my sires into this discussion but i do think it's relevant considering what we are now talking about Show Bloodlines and the diversity many Show lines now don't have .
Mickey McLennan Australia (Verified User) Posts 73 Dogs 0 / Races 0 08 Jun 2016 01:06
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Do not apologise for mentioning your stud dogs, it's how 'newbies' to racing can find and read about each and every dog - and fascinating. I agree with you about frozen semen available from around the world so long as a lot of homework is done on any defects behind the generations of each dog.
It will be really interesting to see how Mr. Wheelers two great dogs, Fernando Bale and Dyna Double One go at stud. One is a complete outcross for 4 generations and if I remember correctly the other is line bred. They are very handsome looking dogs so hopefully they will produce well. Greyhounds we can save easily (if the animal rights lot will let us) but we will not save the dane nor a lot of other purebreds. Interestingly Kevin there is also the theory that offspring from northern hemisphere dogs take a couple of generations to acclimatise to Aust. conditions, re hard tracks, weather, etc. though we didn't notice it with our imports but we weren't looking for it in the offspring either.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 08 Jun 2016 02:10
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Mick re your Quote .
Interestingly Kevin there is also the theory that offspring from northern hemisphere dogs take a couple of generations to acclimatise to Aust. conditions, re hard tracks, weather, etc. though we didn't notice it with our imports but we weren't looking for it in the offspring either.
PAW did and he used it to his advantage ......Other breeders even today don't really understand it . The problem now being we maybe won't see unraced out crossed bitches being used in the breeding barns in the future and many of today's top race dogs do carry some kind of outcross in the first 5 Gens and many of the older outcrossed Dams never stepped foot on a racetrack but have they been able to produce the goods in the breeding barn .... Today every breeder is faced with more challenges and obstacles but i think the days are gone trying experimental litter breeding and we may be forced in the future to only breed greyhounds from our own gene pools because these new rules virtually put a stop to importing of frozen semen to Aust because there just is no market for new untried and tested Stud dogs and it's a real shame to see this happen and i have turned down at least 4 offers to represent frozen semen sales for Stud dogs in Aust from overseas clients .
These rules and regulation not only affect the little and big breeders it also has a flow on effect to every Stud master and stud dog and every commercial breeding farm .
Wal Simmons Australia (Verified User) Posts 244 Dogs 0 / Races 0 09 Jun 2016 02:55
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kevin wright wrote:
WAL SIMMONS wrote:
Good article. Serious food for thought!
I am glad you found some food for thought Wal ...out of the 237 lookers you were the first to post . Personally i love this stuff and its now just a matter of googling the right words and all kinds of topics can be found .
I also found this one to be a very good read as well ....Be warned you need a good hour to read this .. EXTERNAL LINK
Yes Kevin, I watched a doco along the lines of the second paper. It really highlights the way man has selectively bred in an almost whimsical fashion to produce certain outcomes. It pointed out for example in making the snout of bulldogs shorter and shorter the nasal passage has become so convoluted that the dog is literally chocking or the poor dachshund in breeding a longer back ends up a cripple. I guess some of the newer breeds say labrador X poodle = labradoodle etc are actually a positive thing. Because most of the breeds have there own intrinsic set of problems. I've read that greyhounds are a relatively sturdy breed with few widespread problems in the breed. Although Mickeys warning of the incidence of cryptorchids and monorchids is a good point. In this new era of greyhounds I'm guessing we should be looking to develop a new greyhound type. One that chasers for the sake of chasing. So we would need to selectively breed only with those genuine chasers from now on.
Mickey McLennan Australia (Verified User) Posts 73 Dogs 0 / Races 0 09 Jun 2016 05:49
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Wal, the chap who developed the cross called "Labradoodle" has publically stated that he wishes he hadn't done it!! Very few have the necessary traits wanted in this crossbreed and you are correct to say that genuine chasers will be wanted to keep that strong trait to the forefront of the breed.
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