Those "battling trainers" (or owners) have to invest several hundred dollars, sight unseen, in the hope that a magic wand will be waved in 18 months or so. If you like a punt, that's fine as far as it goes.

However, what it produces (and for maiden series at WBL, Dapto and Ipswich) is a long string of lopsided events with lots of scratchings, short-priced favourites and short fields, often containing dogs with no or oddball form.

Where these emerge from an auction series there is some separate justification for the overall effort but it still does not alter the pattern - ie lots of crook contests.

At WBL I can't see the added value and for punters they are a big yawn. The idea is innovative but I would rather see that energy applied in some other way that might attract customers.

These are the types of events that keep owners investing year after year in the hope of getting their own star greyhound.
Its not an event thats on week in week out. There are only a couple of them across the whole country. Its something different amongst the other series that are on as well.
There may be some heats where dogs are totally outclassed and the turnover is not the same as usual but I think balanced out with the buzz that these couple of events create justifies having them.

Your first para and my first para say the same thing.

Your 2nd para - perhaps, but there are a million ways by which you might achieve the same result, as I said in my last para.

IF you look at the big picture you can see that the industry allocates extra cash to two categories of races - premium events with quality runners on the one hand and maidens and low standard dogs on the other.

The latter group includes the several series we are talking about, bonuses for ordinary dogs which are flat out running 650m or more at any speed, C class and Tier 3 slow dogs, races which are restricted to dogs with few wins, 300m jumping contests which are over in a flash, many age-restricted events which attract both good and poor dogs, Novice events in prime time city meetings, and so on.

For example, WPK has just run 9 heats of a maiden series, each $2.5k to the winner (and more to come). Half the runners had no race form at all - just a qualie - yet five of those won, indicating that the trainer group had far better knowledge of their capabilities than the public did. Who were the real winners there?

The other night, Cranbourne and Traralgon meetings both included 10 300s and 2 "normal" races. That might tell you a few things but you might also note that punters/gamblers hate short races as they don't feel they are getting a decent run for their money. The industry lost.

There is possibly a case for any one of these in isolation (but not the 300s) but if you add them all up they comprise a departure from the basic principle of striving for excellence. It's like asking people to come along to support and pay for park football when there is a big match on in the next suburb. Both are good in their own way but only one would rate on TV.

The industry lives on inputs from owners and from punters/gamblers. You have to keep both happy, preferably simultaneously.

Certainly, owners would always hope for a lottery-sized win, as that is part of the attraction. Meantime, what will keep them going are solid rewards from solid dogs in week to week racing.

The Magic Maiden series at Wentworth Park is a poor analogy.

While the heats are not great betting races, the rest of the series will create a lot of interest betting wise

But more importantly than that, it is a strive for excellence, because those maidens are the best in NSW over 500m. Many of these pups are held back to race in the series.

It's not easy to get a fast pup for an ordinary small time owner/trainer so these races are a real target if they happen to get a fast pup who can run the distance

The heats create a lot of interest because industry pundits, breeders, owners, trainers and even punters follow these pups through to their peak racing age because they know they are the crme of the crop.

The Warrnambool Classic was open to all dogs nominated as puppies etc and includes dogs with form

All these type of races provide lop sided heats at times but it is the hope of getting into the final and winning the big $$$$, especially where the bullk of the first prize is provided by sponsorship anyway

However, on a day to day basis, the provision of adequate prizemoney for 1st-3rd place for ordinary dogs is of prime importance to the survival of participants and the elongation of these dogs careers prior to retirement/rehoming.

After all, 95% of greyhounds born are not city-class dogs, they all need to be catered for as well

All those things you mention are pretty right, but is that the right question to pose?

You list all the people who love the Magic Maidens and the Warrnambool Classic but, basically, they are all insiders. As a former regular visitor I have been out to Wenty to watch 30 qualies (non-betting) purely to keep up with form and the future. No longer.

As with those qualies, there was a time when HPK ran weekly maiden non-betting qualies on Mondays with a popular final on the following Saturday.

All that is history, perhaps affected now by dog shortages or other factors. But we have to deal with today, not pre-1987.

There are four major trends evident over the last decade in particular. Average field quality is down. Breeding numbers have been in slow decline. Stamina is poorer. Mug gamblers in pubs are now the dominant source of funds.

There are probably many ingredients to that recipe - more races for fewer dogs being a major one, grading is another - but the end result is that we have a worse cake than in 2008 or 1998 or 1988. The top sprints are still good but the rest is a mish-mash.

Consequently, when the pressure came on breeding dropped like a stone. A few of us have agreed that live baiting did not affect betting but you could also guess that some serious punters were already dropping out to be replaced by the continuing growth of young blokes with a thumb and an Iphone. That certainly happened with owners - Borda for one said so specifically. PAW has halved his activity.

Add up all that stuff and factor in tougher regulations, increased environmental restrictions and other cost pressures and you have to conclude that the industry is in a fragile place.

As I see it, if we had launched serious reform programs 10 years ago, all you guys would be earning 50% more than you are today.

The Warrnambool Classic is just another symptom of the disease. Ok, the nomination period ran smack into all the upheavals and so they did not get the numbers this year. Even so, it tells us that the concept was not strong enough in today's climate. (Nothing wrong with the Launching Pad fields though).

In short, what's important to trainers does not necessarily put more money in the till. If you look after customers first, there will then be more money to flow through to trainers.

yours is just negativity.

the big picture?

maybe you should take your own advice cause you just don't get it, lol.

You and I have fundamental disagreements

I say look after the participants and the greyhounds

You say look after the punters.

I know which group are more fickle!!!

Initially, the ability of people to take their dogs and camp at the showgrounds was removed. This immediately had an adverse effect of the attraction of the event to many attendees. Several groups just stopped going.

So understandably the interest was down.

The basis - supposedly welfare reasons.

And now it goes.

A common denominator - the club being run by a GRV-appointed administrator, with arguably little serious interest in keeping the event. And still no indication when the club will return to member control after more than 2 years.

Interestingly, my application for membership made in April 2016, validly seconded (which was witnessed by several life members and former committee members) was not processed by the administrator. A little disappointing when I have a finance & governance background and a willingness to assist the club.

Should I feel like an oppressed minority? Possibly. Perhaps I really need to be a vocal minority.

But the issue is the club and the event. Sad to see it go. Hopefully to return if the members so determine.

"I know which group are more fickle!!! (ie punters).

That is precisely the problem I have been trying to point out.

At club level, that is not the case.

The administrator stated that cancellation was due to a 40% drop in breeding numbers, and that an advisory group would be formed to consider options.

But once the cycle has been broken eg groups across the state meeting and staying, with their dogs, it will be difficult to recreate.

The trend in nominations would have been identifiable very early, as nominations for 2018 would have been required by Oct 2016. But that implies an entry form for 2018, which I don't recall seeing, so if it was issued, it certainly wasn't as well publicised as previous years.

One could suggest that the administrator after the committee was disbanded in March 2016 did not focus on the promotion necessary for nominations through to Oct 2016.

So Oct 2016 should have been the decision timeframe.

Who knows why it took until Dec 2017 to make the public call.

And Oct 2017 should have been the close off for 2019, so at best 2019 will take a different format, if it happens.

The enthusiasm shown by the committee BACK THEN compared to what you've illustrated highlights a lack of effort today.

Worrying times everywhere you look in this industry, & it's not the participants I'm worried about but the directions from above.

Quote a few good points there but I want to pluck out one for the moment.

"punters will still bet on anything".

No, gamblers will bet on anything, punters will not. Big difference.
One has a bash at any old thing, the other is selective and also looks at the formguide. One could not care less about the dogs themselves, the other will want to see good reliable performances. and sensible welfare.

That is allied to my final comment. I shudder whenever I see the word "administrator". That implies someone who moves paper from the in box to the out box.

What we really need are managers who can organise the industry to produce the best possible result - at club, state and national level. So, whether you approve or not, the Classic system used to pull in people and dogs because it was innovative, even though the end product was a mixed one. Yes, we need that sort of result, even though the Warrnambool Classic could have been better structured

Equally, customers will never grow unless they see something worthwhile buying, have a good experience and then come back next time. That requires hard marketing and timely PR. Neither is present, with just the odd exception.

The current system of management by committee at all levels cannot hope to achieve ideal results - never has, never will - because it encourages mediocrity and stops innovation. That's a big reason why the industry has to cut its ties with government and move out on its own just like every other part of the gambling and sporting sector.

Do you know, in all my many decades in this business, not once have I ever been asked publicly to participate. No ads, no sales, no package deals, no stories about a wonderful breed. (Odd exceptions for displays at Shows). Plenty of nasty stuff, though.

And, no, chatter in trade media or on SKY does not count. The public does not read those.

The main point I brought up is that racing is "not fun" any more for quite a lot of people - ie serious punters. The signs have been that way for some years now but have been disguised by a coincidental rise in mug gamblers, much of that probably due to the ease of using handheld devices to make a bet, whether at the TAB or on the road.

Other signs include the lower use of formguides, the use of touch screens, some pubs offering ridiculously abbreviated online formguides, TABs pushing Mystery bets, tipsters suggesting boxed Trifectas (which are losers even before the jump), Trackside machines, fixed odds bookies putting up rip-off prices and, of course, the minimal attendances at the track.

Absolutely, some feature events pull in crowds, including groups and visiting greyhound families, although that has failed this year at Warrnambool, which must send you a message.

It is not the Classic as such that I highlight, but the totality of a degraded national greyhound product, primarily the rising share held by maidens and low standard dogs, the added prize money for bad dogs, the rising number of short races, all of which makes races less predictable. Add to that all the empty boxes and the dubious nature of breeding today.

We have assets but we need to do a better job of putting them to use.

I am sure you believe "what our sport means to us" and so on. But who is going to pay the rent? Not you, not your fellow trainers, and relying on mugs in pubs is hardly a reliable way of providing for the future.

JOHN TOYE wrote:

your dead right simon,the man called Bruce just rambles on and on,it was about the classic,your going into a supreme court case about everything,you may very well think, your talking sense my learned friend! but myself and Simon, could not possibly agree with you ,end of story