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Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 21 May 2019 10:04
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Graeme Beasley wrote:
Bruce Teague wrote:
Kev,
History, mate, just history. That's what the book is about. If you don't know your history, how can you get better? Certainly not by avoiding the truth. ...
This one gave me a laugh. You're the guy who didn't even know (and still refuses to accept, despite irrefutable evidence) that greyhounds never raced over staying distances in the first few decades of racing, remembering that the two most important parts of greyhound racing are the greyhounds and the racing...
Well Graeme - just a wild guess - but Duncan Stearn (who studies this sort of thing) records that in 1933/38 dogs raced over 600 yds and 800 yds at Harold Park. Even before that, if you go to Haslett's Chasing Dreams you will find references to open coursing in the 1920s over 800 yds. No doubt others will have sources, too.
For the most part, we lack decent info like this because hardly anyone has bothered to record the sport's history very well. Haslett is the exception.
(There could be more in the Newcastle Herald of 1927 but I might have trouble locating it at the moment - it's only on microfiche at the local library. Four Hunter tracks were operating in December of that year).
There you go again with the 'we'. Again, just because YOU don't know something it doesn't mean others don't. Duncan Stearn isn't the only person with a knowledge of the history of greyhound racing and there are records from the actual time (I've given you a link) to indicate which distances greyhounds raced over.
Six hundred yards is 549m, hardly a staying trip, although back in the day it was, but tell me, how regular were the 800 yard races held and did greyhounds race over that distance anywhere else? When marathon races were held there'd be maybe one a month, hardly indicative that greyhounds are bred to run those distances and some would say it was outright cruelty.
Open coursing wasn't the same as track racing - points were awarded for a number of things not including time/speed. Of course, you knew that, given you're (now) a history buff, didn't you?
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 May 2019 03:37
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Longer racing notes pop up all over the place.
Duncan Stearn's item in Paul Munt's book confirms the Epping/Harold Park long race but mentions 804m as the trip in 1933.
Back in Victoria, Shepherd's Bush ran over 600 yards in 1927.
The coursing venture at Craigieburn shows a layout of 650-1,000 yards from the slip to the hare escape route.
Any more might have to wait until I get to Newcastle and the library's microfiche.
Whatever, some commentators claim that dogs were more robust and hardy in those early days.
Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 23 May 2019 08:51
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Longer racing notes pop up all over the place.
Duncan Stearn's item in Paul Munt's book confirms the Epping/Harold Park long race but mentions 804m as the trip in 1933.
Back in Victoria, Shepherd's Bush ran over 600 yards in 1927.
The coursing venture at Craigieburn shows a layout of 650-1,000 yards from the slip to the hare escape route.
Any more might have to wait until I get to Newcastle and the library's microfiche.
Whatever, some commentators claim that dogs were more robust and hardy in those early days.
Again, how often did greyhounds race over these distances? Were they simply novelty races, like the more modern marathon races were?
And again, coursing is different to track racing. If coursing dogs made good track dogs they'd be racing on tracks and siring/throwing track winners. They're a different type of greyhound, almost a different breed, much like show dogs are. Dogs were (likely) more robust and hardy because they were coursing dogs - track dogs are built and selected for speed.
And again, 600 yards isn't a 'staying' distance.
If you're having to do research AFTER commenting you're simply commenting without knowledge, ie, ignorant.
Btw, Shepherd's Bush was in Sydney.
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 23 May 2019 20:57
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My error - Shepherd's Bush was in Sydney, near the current airport. I meant that comment to apply to Craigieburn.
Whatever, there is already quite a bit of evidence that dogs ran over longer trips in "the first two decades".
Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 24 May 2019 04:31
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Bruce Teague wrote:
My error - Shepherd's Bush was in Sydney, near the current airport. I meant that comment to apply to Craigieburn.
Whatever, there is already quite a bit of evidence that dogs ran over longer trips in "the first two decades".
So tell us how often they raced over those distances. Even I could 'race' over a marathon distance but it's certainly not what I'm built for. Were these simply novelty events?
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 24 May 2019 22:58
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Graeme,
You're missing the point again. The fact that info is hard to get is an indictment on the industry itself. That's why I commended the efforts of Haslett/GRV to prepare the book. Likewise Paul Munt. Likewise me and others (Paul Tracey) rummaging through microfiche in the Newcastle library to see what happened in 1927 and beyond. The Sydney Morning Herald has lots too but it takes a huge amount of time to research all this stuff - all for no reward.
If you don't like what's available, get out there and do it yourself.
Valerie Glover Australia (Verified User) Posts 239 Dogs 2 / Races 0 25 May 2019 03:43
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Bruce ,sorry this is a repeat, just typed a reply and it somehow went ?? Talking about books I was asking do you or anybody remember a soft cover edition /monthly or what ever called Haines/Hayes or something similar , which had most results/breeding/ stud dog chart of winners ,etc plus news items , it was around in the 50's ,we had some kept at my uncle's but went when he passed on , I was to ask Hugh Jones { city judge } but when he moved from Nth Syd to the Concord Area , I didn't see much of him , Maybe some of our readers might have some knowledge of this great publication ?? Bob Glover
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 25 May 2019 05:11
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No, Bob, I know of nothing that was around in the 50s in NSW other than a scratchy version of deFax and two weekly editions of the Recorder. I doubt they would have contained historical stuff anyway.
Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 25 May 2019 07:59
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Graeme,
You're missing the point again. The fact that info is hard to get is an indictment on the industry itself. That's why I commended the efforts of Haslett/GRV to prepare the book. Likewise Paul Munt. Likewise me and others (Paul Tracey) rummaging through microfiche in the Newcastle library to see what happened in 1927 and beyond. The Sydney Morning Herald has lots too but it takes a huge amount of time to research all this stuff - all for no reward.
If you don't like what's available, get out there and do it yourself.
I'm not missing the point at all, we're talking about greyhound racing (track) history and you've admitted that you haven't done the research because "it takes a huge amount of time to research all this stuff" even though I've given you a link to an easier way (that you obviously never bothered clicking on) and reminded you of it a number of times. That doesn't stop you coming in here and continually flapping your gums about it without the knowledge to back up what you're saying.
I've asked you twice how often they raced over those distances and you've refused to answer, which means either (a) you don't know, (b) you know but it proves you're wrong about it or (c) there is no (c). UNLIKE YOU I did the research well before commenting and found that staying races weren't a regular occurrence, which tells me they were novelty races, same as the more modern marathons.
Bruce, stop wasting everyone's time and go and find another hobby. That'll be my last reply to anything you post (yes Simon, I get it).
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 25 May 2019 22:27
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Graeme,
Some of us are trying to supply information - so far as we have it.
You are trying to have a shot at us - for reasons best know to yourself - but you do not offer the information we all would value, although you allege you have it yourself.
You first claimed distance racing was non-existent for the "first few decades" yet now you contradict yourself and simply say they "were not a regular occurrence". Which is it?
You refer to a link which supposedly contains a wealth of information yet no such link was included in any of your posts.
You claim you "did the research well" but then you fail to supply details, which suggests you are kidding us.
Unless someone has picked up historical data from other sources the only potential access to that track data would have to come from culling city and regional newspapers - many of which have been digitised wholly or in part. And, even then, some are more readable than others.
To pull all that stuff out would require weeks, months, years of work. It would rack up expenses and it would probably still have some holes in it. To what end? Who would pay for it?
I have been part way down that road in preparing an e-book designed to advise newcomers entering the industry as owners or punters. It is no simple task.
However, good history will always be valuable in one way or another, which why I suggested that all states should do what GRV/Haslett have done. That's the real point.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 25 May 2019 23:32
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Graeme,
Some of us are trying to supply information - so far as we have it.
You are trying to have a shot at us - for reasons best know to yourself - but you do not offer the information we all would value, although you allege you have it yourself.
You first claimed distance racing was non-existent for the "first few decades" yet now you contradict yourself and simply say they "were not a regular occurrence". Which is it?
You refer to a link which supposedly contains a wealth of information yet no such link was included in any of your posts.
You claim you "did the research well" but then you fail to supply details, which suggests you are kidding us.
Unless someone has picked up historical data from other sources the only potential access to that track data would have to come from culling city and regional newspapers - many of which have been digitised wholly or in part. And, even then, some are more readable than others.
To pull all that stuff out would require weeks, months, years of work. It would rack up expenses and it would probably still have some holes in it. To what end? Who would pay for it?
I have been part way down that road in preparing an e-book designed to advise newcomers entering the industry as owners or punters. It is no simple task.
However, good history will always be valuable in one way or another, which why I suggested that all states should do what GRV/Haslett have done. That's the real point.
The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers
In short, journalism is not able to communicate wisdom.
Ian Bradshaw Australia (Verified User) Posts 251 Dogs 6 / Races 0 26 May 2019 04:23
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Kevin Wright wrote:
Bruce Teague wrote:
Graeme,
Some of us are trying to supply information - so far as we have it.
You are trying to have a shot at us - for reasons best know to yourself - but you do not offer the information we all would value, although you allege you have it yourself.
You first claimed distance racing was non-existent for the "first few decades" yet now you contradict yourself and simply say they "were not a regular occurrence". Which is it?
You refer to a link which supposedly contains a wealth of information yet no such link was included in any of your posts.
You claim you "did the research well" but then you fail to supply details, which suggests you are kidding us.
Unless someone has picked up historical data from other sources the only potential access to that track data would have to come from culling city and regional newspapers - many of which have been digitised wholly or in part. And, even then, some are more readable than others.
To pull all that stuff out would require weeks, months, years of work. It would rack up expenses and it would probably still have some holes in it. To what end? Who would pay for it?
I have been part way down that road in preparing an e-book designed to advise newcomers entering the industry as owners or punters. It is no simple task.
However, good history will always be valuable in one way or another, which why I suggested that all states should do what GRV/Haslett have done. That's the real point.
The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers
In short, journalism is not able to communicate wisdom.
Confucius says-
Beware of fake news, spread by fake people!
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 26 May 2019 07:08
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Ian do you think Bruce's Objective journalism and an opinion column are about as similar as the Bible and a Playboy magazine.
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