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Frozen Stats	page 1 2 3 4 5

John McAlister
Australia
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Posts 6567
Dogs 1 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 02:26

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Since I have been back I have many thoughts about this very subject I know plenty has been written yet I still keep going back to when J Newell 1st told me that we would be able to get a choice of many many more Sires from around the world.Great I said always thinking that we would get the full ejaculate for the bitch which doesn't happen today yet back when over 25years ago or more that was how it was to suppose to work.As time goes forward we don't seem to get the quality litters where there is more than 1 or 2 pups that are average quality then virtually zilch I do and always will blame frozen semen because of the fact that I feel that if you are taking a bitch to a dog for the prices they charge nothing short of a full ejaculate should suffice.I have been doing stats for awhile now and what has triggered this off is College Causeway a beautifully bred dog yet since coming to Australia has barely had 50 litters hit the ground it because he was 1 out of a litter where he and his sisters by Go Wild Teddy never went forward here in OZ yet his bloodlines suit our Waverley lineage and quite a few others.I know there is many more variables for consideration to these equations so what I am asking is this has Frozen semen with split ejaculates helping ruining our breeding industry.....The days of Mr and Mrs average breeding and even buying or getting a half decent pup seems well past its day
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ON FROZEN SEMEN AND WHETHER THE BREEDER IS KILLING HIMSELF OFF BY CONTINUALLY USING THEM
The last dog we used here was My Signature for the simple facts of him being the grandson of Spiral Nikita from Kevin Johns's damline which went back to the Immortal Macareena it was a natural mating and what I am seeing is a completely different dog as the pups grow.I am seeing pups the types that I had bred many years ago and these few pups and another litter I whelped down from another Natural Service show all the tenacity and keenness one would want in pups
WHY BUY A BEER AND GET 25% OR LESS FOR YOUR MONEY

Kevin Wright
Australia

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Posts 5708
Dogs 1 / Races 1
20 Jun 2015 04:25

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John McAlister wrote:

Ok John I will try to answer it in as short as way possible so it does not confuse you and then send you on a half a page answer with riddles and story's about goats to coke bottles ..

It only takes ONE SPERM TO ENTER A EGG ....

If you have 100 million LIVE SPERM then you would think thats great odds of conceiving pups .

Now just because a dog gives out a full ejaculate still does not guarantee that is has over 200 or 300 or 400 million live sperm .

Example is Bombastic Shiraz was a 2 vial sire for freezing

His Son Sure As is a 7 vial dog per freezing as per 1.4 billion live sperm .

Now Sure As hails from one of the greatest litters to have raced and also we have Norm Rinaldis litter and both of these litters were conceived with yes you guessed it frozen semen and now you see Sure As's litter sister Starlight Delly produce a very smart litter to Kinloch brea and once again you guessed it frozen semen packaged at 100 Million you see how not all of the facts become apparent if you don't go searching for it and you have you blinkers on


Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 20 Jun 2015 04:43 (0) (0)	Before I answer your question, can I ask how many litters have you done by - A. Naturally. B. Artificial Insemination.

John McAlister
Australia
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Posts 6567
Dogs 1 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 05:10

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Kev for starters stop spruiking your dogs I want this to be a debate not a blew but if you want that fine but not about your dogs I undestsnd how many sperm have to fertilise the egg and I understand that very well sometimes though where some humans are concerned there is a lot of genes that get missed out on especially in self opiniated stud guys
Steve I have done 1 of each and been involved with 3 natural the 3 natural litters are all very forward and aggressive the other was from a 100% proven bitch I have spoke to a vet and he told me it is better to take your bitch to be implanted because of the 95% strike rate of getting her in pup well to me I would still be prepared to miss out all together going natural ...I watched the vet do the op and to me washing sperm over the eggs is not a good way to go it may be ok for cattle dogs not racing dogs

John McAlister
Australia
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Posts 6567
Dogs 1 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 05:20

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Look I have a go at no one here on this thread about this subject ok they draw an ejaculate and in some cases as it has been explained they can get 2 straws or anything up to seven so with the average litter around the 6 mark 2 bitches could have pups born @ 6 each from that 1 ejaculate the other dog could have up to 36 pups from that 1 ejaculate from 6 different bitches and to me this is a cloudy area because no stats are kept on any 1 ejaculate of pups produced to individual winners.I think Cosmic Rumble is a good example he seems to get 1 maybe 2 quick pups and then very mediocre after that


John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 20 Jun 2015 05:24 (0) (0)	Am I not better off paying a 2750 fee for fresh AI where I get all the ejaculate a full cup or paying 1650 plus the implant fee for 15% of a cup of the same ejaculate

Kenneth Markham
Australia
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Posts 252
Dogs 0 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 06:11

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From someone who has used 2 straws at once I see this process as a forward move for the industry as u can fastrack your lines.It is a very interesting topic as there is a case that due to the harshness of freezing u don't need as many sperm and u increase your chance of having a litter and the weaker sperm die in the process.I feel that a good debate would also argue u get a better quality pup for the reasons above.

Grant Thomas
Australia
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Posts 11447
Dogs 64 / Races 20
20 Jun 2015 07:16

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John McAlister wrote:

Am I not better off paying a 2750 fee for fresh AI where I get all the ejaculate a full cup or paying 1650 plus the implant fee for 15% of a cup of the same ejaculate

That depends on whether you own the stud dog or the bitch going to him...???

Jack Gatty
Australia
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Posts 2055
Dogs 1 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 07:27

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The weaker sperm may die in the freezing process but you could also argue that the weaker sperm wouldn't 'win the race' or survive in a natural mating either. Actually there probably is an argument that in a natural the strongest/healthiest sperm would make it - were in an implant of frozen it's pot luck what sperm is placed on the eggs. But if Fernando Bale was produced by frozen implant I don't think we have to much to worry about.

Grant Thomas
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 11447
Dogs 64 / Races 20
20 Jun 2015 07:40

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Jack Gatty wrote:

F.B. AND plenty of exceptional others...

Nicholas Arena
Australia

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Posts 233
Dogs 10 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 08:31

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I understand what John is saying - some stud dogs via FS consistently through big litters and others - well lets say they are questionable.The more pups the better the chances!

Pre FS the stud masters often accommodated breeders who were repeat customers and experienced poor litter sizes - not sure that is the case today.

If breeders do their homework they will identify with dogs/stud masters who afford them the best opportunity to make a mating work.

Steven Martin
Australia

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Posts 7681
Dogs 180 / Races 66
20 Jun 2015 08:54

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Hi John.

Since the inception of artificial insemination......my last 18 litters have gone down this path.

The results have occurred in a personal averaged of 6.59 pups per litter...ABOVE THE AUSTRALIAN AVERAGE (which I'll come too in a minute).

May I also add (touchwood) that I've NEVER had a "Miss" since turning to this "State of the art", technology.

Within these litters I've produced Group finalist, Feature, FFA, Greyhound of the Year & City winners.

I'm yet to produce a Group winner but I'm closing in I believe...with a little luck.

You can "Bitch" all you like John about STUDMASTERS making money through semen splits.

You can "Bitch" all you like about paying VETS 5 / $600 dollars for a serves that compliments A.I.

But you can not ignore the results.

I've got extensive stats at hand that say the REVERSE of what your saying.

For example (& this is just a slice of the pie) & over JUST the last 20 years, the average litter size in Australia is 6.286852193.

Australian sires (when added together) produce - 6.279892819 pups per litter.

Import sires (when added together) produce - 6.370004297 pups per litter.

Yes the imported sire actually produces more but the quality they leave...I'll keep for another story one day.

20 years ago I was driving the legendary cars...The X2 HR holden & HJ Monaro (wish I still had both) :-(

Today I'm driving a new Holden Commodore.

I love ALL those cars equally, but I know which one is the safest, reliable, most comfortable & up todate of them all.

The same goes with the breeding of a greyhound or any other bred today.

I say move with the times John.

I understand your probably on a pension & you've gotta make ends meet, but its the way to go IMO.

Regards........Steve.

Steven Martin
Australia

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Posts 7681
Dogs 180 / Races 66
20 Jun 2015 09:59

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I should ALSO state, that the following sires in most recent times -
Barcia Bale, Bekim Bale, Big Daddy Cool, Collision, Cosmic Chief, Cosmic Rumble, El Galo, El Grand Senor, High Earner, Lochinvar Marlow, Magic Sprite, Milldean Panther, Mogambo, Premier Fantasy*, Prince Diablo, Pure Octane, Superman, Swift Fancy, Talk's Cheap, Velocette & Where's Pedro....Have a total average litter size...when combined, of 6.32342.

95% of these mating's (if not higher) I believe would be A.I.

John McAlister
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6567
Dogs 1 / Races 0
20 Jun 2015 12:58

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Steve I said earlier that this thread has nothing to do with the prices of anything I am just putting this out there because I do feel that frozen is detrimental and I am not stuck in the 70's or 0's or whatever I just feel that prior to frozen the litters back then were of better quality I know people will argue different but that's what this thread is about.As far as imports go they are used for a reason and that reason is for bringing a new blood to freshen the lines of breeders that want to go that way PW has proven that time and time again and look how he is travelling.I think it's great you throw stat's up of your dogs to have raced now that you have given them can you tell me how those litters produced for you to get the better performed dog.I have only ever bred to race I usually keep them all til after education then they get sorted from there so tell me how the rest of the pups in the litters you have bred performed besides the ones you have mentioned.Like Melena Bale which is the only bitch I have bred with was frozen AI the 1st time around she produced a couple of City winners and then very little for the rest of the litter yet it was still a 100% IW's the next litter we bred by Cosmic Chief were from a frozen Implant and I watched that being done when I saw it being done I thought this is ridiculous washing the semen over the eggs and it actually turned me off breeding with a bitch this way again the results were very mediocre to say the least with very little aggression well the sort I like to see this litter now are just the opposite they are very aggressive.I am a great believer in nature and survival of the fittest especially when it comes to racing dogs washing semen over the eggs to me just doesn't seem right.How many of your litters have been frozen Implant Frozen/AI or Fresh AI or just chuck some of the broods up here that you have bred with then I can work out the stats from there.By the way Steve the Cosmic Chief litter produced 4 IW for a total of 8 races from 10 live pups there were 3 others that could have won a race or 2 if I persevered with them and the best girl sits in her kennel out the back she was the strongest and on parr with her 2 faster brothers


Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 20 Jun 2015 13:31 (0) (0)	John.......I've had enough. I'm going to bed.

Michael Brcic
Australia
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Posts 1475
Dogs 4 / Races 23
20 Jun 2015 13:37

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The thing I have wondered by using frozen semen is are we possibly getting the weak sperm that would normally die off the opportunity the fertilise the eggs? If so then doesn't this increase our chances of getting a pup of a lesser quality? I assume that may be the case but I could be well off and is something that I wonder about.

Personally I think luck plays a big part and i'm not overly fussed either way. The benefits of frozen are widening the gene pool by giving us access to dogs that we normally wouldn't have access to. We also had a brood that didn't like naturals at all so frozen was the only way to go with her.

Personally for me it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.


John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 20 Jun 2015 19:05 (0) (0)	When the bitch is served the authorities write in 3 ways of having it done NM or Normal Mating...AI which is artificial insemination...and FI which I take it as frozen implant ...are these FI's including Frozen AI..I do know some places do frozen AI ..anyone have an idea

Cyril John Anderson
Australia

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Posts 281
Dogs 75 / Races 5
21 Jun 2015 02:40

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I would love to use natural if it was available, i beleive very few stud dogs are allowed to do true naturally as the risk to damage to their shaft is to great & the more normal natural is to draw than place the semen in the bitch without surgery or even a vet involve & naturally it has not been frozen so i assume this is AI. The wriggles have still to compete to reach the egg so i place this in my natural services group in regards this thread. I was told a couple of years ago from a person that i had respect for in breeding that not one group winner that year was as a result from frozen semen. I am leed to beleive that Paul Wheeler doesn't use frozen unless the dog isn't available but also uses frozen without hesitation.
I would love to see stats on group winners from frozen verses unfrozen but this will not stop me from using frozen.
This could be a very interesting thread.
We are entering a period where we have to reinvent ourselves & what we do to get our dogs to perform & everything regardless of how minor it is may help somebody, to rare our pups & educate them today has to be totally different to yesterday, there is no room to be lazy.
Today with stats & breeding experts available we are able to seek advice on breeding & cross the matches & breed perfect litters identical to champions or quality dogs only to find they can't find 2nd gear. I take my hat off to these breeding experts because they are good but they will always tell you this increases your chances but there is no guarantee it will work & you sees this many many times in repeat matings, i am a beleive that also a failed mating is simple a repeat mating in reverse & if you had enough guts & $ if you went back to the sire the repeat mating could be the success you were looking for.

Frozen semen has become the norm & it gives us convient access to sires we could not dream of using & yes maybe we pay a price for that.

Paul Wheeler
Australia
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Posts 329
Dogs 8 / Races 0
21 Jun 2015 02:43

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John
I suggest if you don't like frozen .Don't use it !

And all those that do , like myself will continue to use it.
It's as simple as that !

I think frozen semen is one of the best things that has ever happened to the greyhound breeding system in Australia .

As I said there is no rule to say you have to use frozen so if you have any problems with it don't use it.

Just don't dump your rubbish on those that do wish to use it

Paw


Peter Rotziokos Australia (Verified User) Posts 12 Dogs 9 / Races 0 21 Jun 2015 03:13 (0) (0)	Amen!! Your breeding world is your oyster bring it on and enjoy the journey It gives you breeding !!

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