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Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 11 Nov 2015 01:25
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John McAlister wrote:
Mick you made yourself go to school breeding school you bred on a hunch and that's great but if that bitch hadn't of thrown much or nothing would you have bred again.I have a girl here now actually several that I may breed with I am a great believer in backing your bitch ...once
John, The answer to your question is a definite yes. Although I'm a firm believer that the bitch has the most influence in a mating, if the first hadn't worked, there would always be that element of doubt that maybe I just got the sire selection wrong, had I not tried it again. So, yes, I would have tried ONCE more, using a different sire line. I'm a firm believer in backing my bitch...twice...for my own peace of mind.
What I really wanted to get from you is your thoughts on what do you think would be a fair criteria for broods that would not jeopardize potential good broods?
Cheers.
Troy Scott Australia (Verified User) Posts 1573 Dogs 19 / Races 36 11 Nov 2015 01:31
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John McAlister wrote:
Synthetic way of educating pups and I will assure everyone that reads this forum that things are just about to get a little tougher... THE BREEDING INDUSTRY NEEDED A BIG SHAKE UP and shake up it has got BUT IT HAS'NT GONE FAR ENOUGH a lot of readers are going to think differently to me on this one but I doubt the professional successful breeder won't.There are too many would be breeders out there that will breed willy nilly with just about anything to try to get a few bucks and a lot of them use Data to do the matchups their knowledge is very very poor when it actually comes to breeding.The authorities are never going to get on top of these breeding bungles unless they start putting rules into place concerning would be breeders getting a Breeding Card for a bitch is falling wat too short of the mark
I don't see any issues with educating the "synthetic way", so long as it's done from day dot all the way through to breaking, pre-training and training. Consistency and patience is the key, only the real "dog" people will thrive in what will be a totally new era and environment of racing.
I'd love to see all the sooks, pretenders and cheaters leave the industry, move with the times or leave... pretty simple stuff.
And there's no real right or wrong way when it comes to breeding, that's just rubbish John. So long as it's not a ridiculous match up. But to some extent I'll agree that we need a crack down on what bitches are allowed to be bred with, and visa versa with stud dogs... but far more important to breeding is EDUCATION and UPBRINGING! We need a total clean up and regulations put in place to better improve:
REARING BREAKING PRE-TRAINING and make it harder to get a trainers license FFS!
Nurture over nature IMHO.
In regards to the point of this thread, I have 3 bitches in pup! waiting for another 3 to come on season!
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 11 Nov 2015 02:02
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Troy, You could be right in regards to education from young age with synthetics...time will tell on that one.
What I would like to know is the real reason why authorities have come to this decision. Social license? Who issues that license? The public? What's the premise to the decision?...animal cruelty? Is offering animal product in the form of a shmacko, cruel? Freedom of choice taboo? Dare I ask it, is it in line with the racing act?
I'm concerned with the REASON behind the decision.
Bill Warner Australia (Verified User) Posts 320 Dogs 20 / Races 384 11 Nov 2015 02:08
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Have a look at David Brasch's column in this week's NGF (I hope it's this week) for some interesting news regarding the synthetic approach.
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 11 Nov 2015 02:21
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Theres no school for breeding because its an art form not an equation.Fast dog over fast bitch gets fast pups..no it doesn't not every time and its a difficult thing to understand why things worked or didn't.You cant really regulate for good rearing because feeding pups and providing fresh water really to a person who doesn't understand is enough.When it comes to breaking in some are naturals some take months so its going to get hard regulating an industry where some people excel and some should choose another past time its now where the PTB need to toughen up on those that regularly fail in there endevours.Whether that's training,breeding or whatever tap them on the shoulder and wish them good luck in there future sport.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 02:28
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Michael Geraghty wrote:
John McAlister wrote:
Mick you made yourself go to school breeding school you bred on a hunch and that's great but if that bitch hadn't of thrown much or nothing would you have bred again.I have a girl here now actually several that I may breed with I am a great believer in backing your bitch ...once
that's a tough one to answer Michael it would be impossible to answer really I think how the rule stands now is ok get your breeding card and breed your 1st 2 litters in the 18 month time frame then then no more pups until A the bitch proves herself as a win producer in the 1st litter or B the 2nd litter ......for the 3rd litter C if proven 40% pups raced not named
John, The answer to your question is a definite yes. Although I'm a firm believer that the bitch has the most influence in a mating, if the first hadn't worked, there would always be that element of doubt that maybe I just got the sire selection wrong, had I not tried it again. So, yes, I would have tried ONCE more, using a different sire line. I'm a firm believer in backing my bitch...twice...for my own peace of mind.
What I really wanted to get from you is your thoughts on what do you think would be a fair criteria for broods that would not jeopardize potential good broods?
Cheers.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 02:43
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Troy Scott wrote:
John McAlister wrote:
Synthetic way of educating pups and I will assure everyone that reads this forum that things are just about to get a little tougher... THE BREEDING INDUSTRY NEEDED A BIG SHAKE UP and shake up it has got BUT IT HAS'NT GONE FAR ENOUGH a lot of readers are going to think differently to me on this one but I doubt the professional successful breeder won't.There are too many would be breeders out there that will breed willy nilly with just about anything to try to get a few bucks and a lot of them use Data to do the matchups their knowledge is very very poor when it actually comes to breeding.The authorities are never going to get on top of these breeding bungles unless they start putting rules into place concerning would be breeders getting a Breeding Card for a bitch is falling wat too short of the mark
I don't see any issues with educating the "synthetic way", so long as it's done from day dot all the way through to breaking, pre-training and training. Consistency and patience is the key, only the real "dog" people will thrive in what will be a totally new era and environment of racing.
I'd love to see all the sooks, pretenders and cheaters leave the industry, move with the times or leave... pretty simple stuff.
And there's no real right or wrong way when it comes to breeding, that's just rubbish John. So long as it's not a ridiculous match up. But to some extent I'll agree that we need a crack down on what bitches are allowed to be bred with, and visa versa with stud dogs... but far more important to breeding is EDUCATION and UPBRINGING! We need a total clean up and regulations put in place to better improve:
REARING BREAKING PRE-TRAINING and make it harder to get a trainers license FFS!
Nurture over nature IMHO.
In regards to the point of this thread, I have 3 bitches in pup! waiting for another 3 to come on season!
Troy there is a right way to breed and that's called responsible breeding it's where the breeder or the person doing the breeding can cast all feelings aside and breed to the knowledge theory this theory of breeding to sell is ok for the better class bitches and the proven bitches and even that doesn't come with a guarantee As far as Synthetics go I put 2 pups not yet 11 months old around Murrays up here over a 200m slip they had their favourite toys at the end neither wanted to know it in the pen on the arm both chased hard though these pups have had toys since 3 weeks old were on the drag at 4 mths [kids bike] ...personally they have overdone the dead carcass bit way too much ..I would like to ask the authorities and the Antis this how many greyhounds have been rehomed that were raced that have had a lot more than a dead rabbit
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 11 Nov 2015 02:47
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I don't know where you guys are getting that you have to have an 18 month gap between the 1st and 2nd litter
16.6. Breeding females must not whelp more than two litters in any 18 month period.
You can have two litters in an 18 month period, you can't have 3 litters in an 18 month period
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 02:59
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that's right Sandro 2 in and 18 month period a 6 month bitch could do that easy
Troy Scott Australia (Verified User) Posts 1573 Dogs 19 / Races 36 11 Nov 2015 03:12
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As I said John, so long as it's not a ridiculous match up.
Besides, people should know by now it's bloody expensive to breed, and more importantly raise and educate correctly! So why would anyone waste their hard earned money on breeding rubbish to rubbish??? I really don't think breeding in this country is a major concern, I think it's what happens thereafter, REARING, BREAKING and TRAINING... the best breeding can be ruined by just one of these 3 key stages of creating racing greyhounds.
Further to that, if the majority of participants pulled their heads out of their ass, they would see the real problem with this so called "wastage" is the fact that there's nowhere to race slower or older dogs, and if we cut prize money from the top heavy city and group racing, we would be able to create another tier for more dogs to race and race for longer! Think about it, it's the same people winning all the group races, it's pretty much the same people winning city races (particularly here in VIC) and it's these same people that DON'T put back into the sport, they DON'T stand up for the sport when it's under fire, they leave it up to the 80% of participants that race for 20% of the prize money to defend the industry, and for what??? Chump change compared to the big players! Time to see a revamp in prize money, encourage people to stay in the sport and race slower and older dogs too! 4th place prize money would also help the backbone of this sport, the hobbyist and true lover of the breed and sport. Because guess what John, slow dogs come out of champion race bitches too! And it's these slow ones that filter down through the grades in various states through various trainers... time for a fairer prize money system!
We're seeing ridiculous first prize of $420,000 for just one race, who once again is likely to go to one of the big players, just like most of the other group races year in year out... we could easily cut the money back to help fund the lower end of racing, and therefore create a great image to show the public we're serious about being more efficient with what we breed.
Edward (Ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 1195 Dogs 16 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 03:35
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This thread is getting full of bull---- John my dogs are broken in by me and I don't use animals they mostly chase .I have bred the same line for a few years now and had good success this theory of best to best is not the be all and end all of breeding its more about making an educated decision and knowing your line. I bred from a bitch who won 2 from 80 something she had 8 pups 6 raced 6 won. She is in the top ten broods in Tassie and top 400 in aus. The new rules are an encroachment on peoples freedom of right and like some other rules are just a kneejerk decision.My last word on the subject cheers Ted.
Anthony Jeffress Australia (Verified User) Posts 3669 Dogs 54 / Races 10 11 Nov 2015 03:36
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Troy Scott wrote:
As I said John, so long as it's not a ridiculous match up.
Besides, people should know by now it's bloody expensive to breed, and more importantly raise and educate correctly! So why would anyone waste their hard earned money on breeding rubbish to rubbish??? I really don't think breeding in this country is a major concern, I think it's what happens thereafter, REARING, BREAKING and TRAINING... the best breeding can be ruined by just one of these 3 key stages of creating racing greyhounds.
Further to that, if the majority of participants pulled their heads out of their ass, they would see the real problem with this so called "wastage" is the fact that there's nowhere to race slower or older dogs, and if we cut prize money from the top heavy city and group racing, we would be able to create another tier for more dogs to race and race for longer! Think about it, it's the same people winning all the group races, it's pretty much the same people winning city races (particularly here in VIC) and it's these same people that DON'T put back into the sport, they DON'T stand up for the sport when it's under fire, they leave it up to the 80% of participants that race for 20% of the prize money to defend the industry, and for what??? Chump change compared to the big players! Time to see a revamp in prize money, encourage people to stay in the sport and race slower and older dogs too! 4th place prize money would also help the backbone of this sport, the hobbyist and true lover of the breed and sport. Because guess what John, slow dogs come out of champion race bitches too! And it's these slow ones that filter down through the grades in various states through various trainers... time for a fairer prize money system!
We're seeing ridiculous first prize of $420,000 for just one race, who once again is likely to go to one of the big players, just like most of the other group races year in year out... we could easily cut the money back to help fund the lower end of racing, and therefore create a great image to show the public we're serious about being more efficient with what we breed.
Hi Troy,
THANK YOU! I'm glad to see there's at least a few who appear to be 'switched on' enough to have a decent grasp of what's happened / happening, and can likewise come up with some reasonable options and suggestions.
I have been trying to raise the issue of Group prizemoney for years, and I am sure the phrase I (repeatedly) used was primarily in relation to the apparent 'pis#ing competition' between the crews at Sandown, The Meadows and Wentworth Park seeking to try to go "one-up" on each other with races like the Melbourne Cup, Australian Cup and Easter Egg (etc).
The GRASS ROOTS carry more than their 'fair share' when it comes to CONTRIBUTING to the 'pie' that we ALL survive on.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 11 Nov 2015 03:37
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John McAlister wrote:
that's right Sandro 2 in and 18 month period a 6 month bitch could do that easy
I am assuming it is a rolling 12 month period
Theoretically speaking, 12 month bitch can have 2 in an 18 month period as well, but her 3rd litter will have to wait till the year after
Litter 1 Nov 15 Litter 2 Nov 16 Litter 3 Nov 17 (24 months after her first litter - OK!!)
A 6 month bitch can have
Litter 1 Nov 15 Litter 2 May 16 Can't have 3rd litter till after May 17 (18 months after 1st litter)
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 11 Nov 2015 03:39
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Troy Scott wrote:
As I said John, so long as it's not a ridiculous match up.
Besides, people should know by now it's bloody expensive to breed, and more importantly raise and educate correctly! So why would anyone waste their hard earned money on breeding rubbish to rubbish??? I really don't think breeding in this country is a major concern, I think it's what happens thereafter, REARING, BREAKING and TRAINING... the best breeding can be ruined by just one of these 3 key stages of creating racing greyhounds.
Further to that, if the majority of participants pulled their heads out of their ass, they would see the real problem with this so called "wastage" is the fact that there's nowhere to race slower or older dogs, and if we cut prize money from the top heavy city and group racing, we would be able to create another tier for more dogs to race and race for longer! Think about it, it's the same people winning all the group races, it's pretty much the same people winning city races (particularly here in VIC) and it's these same people that DON'T put back into the sport, they DON'T stand up for the sport when it's under fire, they leave it up to the 80% of participants that race for 20% of the prize money to defend the industry, and for what??? Chump change compared to the big players! Time to see a revamp in prize money, encourage people to stay in the sport and race slower and older dogs too! 4th place prize money would also help the backbone of this sport, the hobbyist and true lover of the breed and sport. Because guess what John, slow dogs come out of champion race bitches too! And it's these slow ones that filter down through the grades in various states through various trainers... time for a fairer prize money system!
We're seeing ridiculous first prize of $420,000 for just one race, who once again is likely to go to one of the big players, just like most of the other group races year in year out... we could easily cut the money back to help fund the lower end of racing, and therefore create a great image to show the public we're serious about being more efficient with what we breed.
100% Troy
Cynthia Suttle Australia (Verified User) Posts 195 Dogs 0 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 03:45
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Troy Scott wrote:
As I said John, so long as it's not a ridiculous match up.
Besides, people should know by now it's bloody expensive to breed, and more importantly raise and educate correctly! So why would anyone waste their hard earned money on breeding rubbish to rubbish??? I really don't think breeding in this country is a major concern, I think it's what happens thereafter, REARING, BREAKING and TRAINING... the best breeding can be ruined by just one of these 3 key stages of creating racing greyhounds.
Further to that, if the majority of participants pulled their heads out of their ass, they would see the real problem with this so called "wastage" is the fact that there's nowhere to race slower or older dogs, and if we cut prize money from the top heavy city and group racing, we would be able to create another tier for more dogs to race and race for longer! Think about it, it's the same people winning all the group races, it's pretty much the same people winning city races (particularly here in VIC) and it's these same people that DON'T put back into the sport, they DON'T stand up for the sport when it's under fire, they leave it up to the 80% of participants that race for 20% of the prize money to defend the industry, and for what??? Chump change compared to the big players! Time to see a revamp in prize money, encourage people to stay in the sport and race slower and older dogs too! 4th place prize money would also help the backbone of this sport, the hobbyist and true lover of the breed and sport. Because guess what John, slow dogs come out of champion race bitches too! And it's these slow ones that filter down through the grades in various states through various trainers... time for a fairer prize money system!
We're seeing ridiculous first prize of $420,000 for just one race, who once again is likely to go to one of the big players, just like most of the other group races year in year out... we could easily cut the money back to help fund the lower end of racing, and therefore create a great image to show the public we're serious about being more efficient with what we breed.
100% Troy We really need a "LIKE" button.
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 11 Nov 2015 03:55
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The ones doing there ass are more concerned for the industry than the 10% making all the money..
Jack Gatty Australia (Verified User) Posts 2055 Dogs 1 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 04:03
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Back to the fair share problem. The red hots can put on 1.3 million dollar races yet it's on the back of our industry being robbed to prop up their prize money. If we got our quota then you would hope that the PTB would leave group money as is and put the rest into older and slower dogs.I must be dreaming.
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 11 Nov 2015 04:07
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Veteran races should be the last race of every meeting .So if its a 10 card program now its 11.The distance and grading should just go on noms recieved.They really made no effort on this issue which showed there true colours on wastage.
Jack Gatty Australia (Verified User) Posts 2055 Dogs 1 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 04:10
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Maybe the first race Jamie - it's harder to hang on the older you get. Lol
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 11 Nov 2015 04:16
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Perhaps..either way every meet regardless of numbers put on a race for full monies and watch attitudes change.Id like too see top graders that get past 3 3/4 drop back down in grade as they get older.If you get beaten by a 4 year old would you really be pissedI don't think so.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
