I have always liked AR but also wanted to explore if Mcinerney brings anything that could potentially make him a better option.

This will be Phoebes last litter, we have previously used ADB and FB with her.

Aston Rupee x Merlot Hayze

https:/ CLICK HERE

Mcinerney x Merlot Hayze

https:/ CLICK HERE

Merlot Hayze x Out of Range

EXTERNAL LINK

Also for those that discuss recreating a sire within a pedigree, how does the example below look if I am trying to add some collision in the above mating, does this meet the requirements.

Collision x Nicki Fields

https:/ CLICK HERE

Thanks.

I know he is unproven but there is a lot to like about Amron Boy for her

https:/ CLICK HERE

Perfect on paper ;) - 94% within 5 gens through different individuals gives you a chance of recreating that Collision vigour within the ped just as his half brother would. You also get that perfectly positioned 'not in x' outcross sireline with Out of Range, not that you needed it as Nebbiolo's outcross sireline is only 2 sireline positions away in your girls damline.

2nd dam going up the sireline Chloe Allen also carries different individuals in her ped that also linebreeds Collision at a very high 88% within 5 gens https:/ CLICK HERE where 14 of the 16 lines are cross duplicated. Even though Bowetzel isn't cross duplicated his sire Second Stage and dam Princess Diro are, if you click on the 12 gen ped.

So OOR gives up 2 doses of linebreeding at very high and extremely high percentages to Collision through different individuals. Hopefully the nick clicks for you.

Still liking the way you think about pedigrees Nathan. G/l if you go this way.

https:/ CLICK HERE

Or even a fast Grandson !

https:/ CLICK HERE

https:/ CLICK HERE

Agree , hence I went with a hard honest chasing dam line of both Tommy Shelby and Jungle Duece with the later being a son a barcia that has been a previous possible model for success for her already .

Is there any specific reason for the Collision interest ? Someone once taught me there has to be a reason !

How are her Fernando litter looking / traits etc in comparison to the Aston litter at the same age Nathan ?

Thats what I would be leaning my decision towards as apposed to PURELY a nick element / angle of breeding due to her being MBF .. not saying she isnt honest herself , but it is a rarity in his breed to find as 4 out of 5 have a mind of their own , which is why no one uses him. ( reared and seen many litters for this experienced opinion ) .

No matter the nick potency, collisions arent known for being ball tearing hard chasers , they are purely class pups or duds . No in between!

Will this help her as a brood , only you would know as her previous litters should have given you great evidence in comparisons in traits with Barcia lines / Fernando lines , even if the 2nd litter hasnt hit tracks yet . Chalk and cheese as sires imop

Good luck anyhow bud , she looks like a beauty in the breeding barn and well done , good to see results in the future which ever way you go .

Cheers

just an average Collision x Solar Pak litter at a guess? lol

From page 2 on this topic:

Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

Nathan Trigg wrote: .....We have Aston Dee Bee penciled in for littermate Merlot Hayze, who on paper was lesser performed than the other two but was always naturally stronger but didnt have a great run with injuries. We bred Nebbiolo with Barcia bale which only resulted in one bitch pup, she is only 11 months but looks like she has some nice traits so hopefully the BB influence in ADB will add some value with her.... Hi Nathan, Congratulations on Bartel Hayze https:/ CLICK HERE . I don't know about Barcia being a major influence as it was pointed out to me that it was likely Collision being reintroduced by ADB's dam Aston Elle at an exceptionally high 94% within 5 gens https:/ CLICK HERE back into the same damline, that's creating the vigour within Bartel Hayze's pedigree, and it makes a lot of sense as Collision when put over this same damline gave up Good Odds Harada and Feral Franky among other stars https:/ CLICK HERE . The good news is you may be able to go back to the same Collision well for future matings with her and her sisters if you so wish, with other sires whose dams and sires dams etc., create a similarly high intensity with Collision. The primary linebreeding in the x path is to Tranquil Flame (which is proven many times over), with this litter through littermates Goddess of Fire and Awesome Assassin. You have so many options when you buy into a great damline. Really well bred Nathan. ps. thx Jim P (Pepe) for pointing this out, you really shld be contributing on this site ....I think probably the most knowledgeable person, especially historically on damlines, that I've spoken to. Cheers.

Nathan we are currently breaking in the Fernando litter so it will be a few months away before we really know how they will perform on the track. So far seven of the nine are chasing ok with the other two still cruising a bit.

To be honest If I had to pick a litter out of the Astons and Fernandos at 16 months and not knowing race performance,I would pick the Astons. They definitely matured earlier and worked harder in the paddock as pups.

I only have a basic knowledge of nicks and crosses hence why I ask for thoughts about sires Im looking at. I try to look at what traits will improve the brood and with Merlot its trying to gain some strength without being over the top.

I really like Jungle Duece and think he would be more suited to Dollcetto Hayze, I just wondered if it was a bit close.

Nothing to worry about with that mating Nathan !

Once you have your nick (that may not necessarily be OOR), and are happy with it Nathan, the rest is as follows as you state above and you've done as much as you can for the bitch. The rest is up to her.

Many either don't do that or put the cart before the horse, but you think about breeding in a logical order, and that's vital for success imo. Well done with whichever choice you make and whatever the outcome, you know you've got the process right. Cheers.

Ill cut to the chase

Collision .. stud 2 decades 7000 pups , 5 studs with no further sons to carry on ? Good odds and feral , will they buck Collisions 20 year hoodoo ?

Barcia bale .. stud 1 decade 7000 pups 15 studs with many already having sons .

This isnt a comparison on whos a better stud , its a guide overall for types of offspring a stud throws and consistency, which may assist certain broods / types and breeds etc .

In ref to Solar pak / collision nick , go back further when the dam lines were one before Merlots hayze dam line went in a different direction with an outcross thru Larkhill Jo , Tifi had 19 pups to collision with 1 or 2 runners breaking single digits for wins , some could say is suspect . Unless you want a brood , it produced 7 .

The more recent Collison x to Solar pak , are we ruling out the possible influence from Mogambo ( which isnt in Merlot Hayze )and the success lands strictly on the damline that produced 2-3 runners of note from 19 pups generations earlier ?

Good topic with endless alternatives, the journey and results ahead will be a blast for you Nath , killed it already reviving a few quiet generations regardless !

Go with your intuition , aswell as a calculated method / theory , good to hear you matching your broods characteristics , no point in having a Ferrari in the garage thats scared of speed .

Cheers

Collision has already nicked with NT's bitch and this damline, as shown previously, so why wld he need an overall guide ?

Nathan Bendeich wrote:

......In ref to Solar pak / collision nick , go back further when the dam lines were one before Merlots hayze dam line went in a different direction with an outcross thru Larkhill Jo , Tifi had 19 pups to collision with 1 or 2 runners breaking single digits for wins , some could say is suspect . Unless you want a brood , it produced 7 ..........

It's irrelevant imo because the MERLOT HAYZE litter with the Collision nick won approx $425k

Nathan Bendeich wrote:

.....The more recent Collison x to Solar pak , are we ruling out the possible influence from Mogambo ( which isnt in Merlot Hayze )and the success lands strictly on the damline that produced 2-3 runners of note from 19 pups generations earlier ? ..........

Of course not, obviously every dog in the pedigree effects the end result genetically, however we are looking for nicks that have clicked previously to hopefully ensure a similar result.

Nathan Trigg wrote:

Hi, Could I have some thoughts about the test mating below please, weather that be positives or negatives. Some of the reasons I am looking at OOR is his chilled temperament, seems to be crossing well with bitches containing Larkhill Joe and throws some strength. Merlot Hayze x Out of Range EXTERNAL LINK Also for those that discuss recreating a sire within a pedigree, how does the example below look if I am trying to add some collision in the above mating, does this meet the requirements. Collision x Nicki Fields https:/ CLICK HERE Thanks.

NT asked a specific question re OOR and Collision, I answered it. I don't know that OOR wld be my first choice as I haven't checked all possible outcomes as others including your good self may have, however OOR fits NT's criteria for nicks and his broods characteristics it seems. Cheers.

I gave an overall guide due to the fact the actual original sire himself in full ( not a recreation with his damline not in play and others in different positions of potency and generational change ) ? Has been used on this damline over a dozen times for absolutely nothing . Lol

Recreating 90% of collision and understanding the above results in full would not be putting the highest percentages in your favour for success due to other factors outside the nick method being understood .

Which is all Im adding to the topic on top of the cross in question .

Ive always said , nicks are awesome and a necessity and no better explained then your good self , but the complete package in a chaser ( Mentality etc ) can come from the sire with the right character traits to begin with .

Both angles need to be weighed up and understood

Cheers guys and all the best in future

And my point(actually Tesio's), is that it's the different individuals that created approx 94% of Collision is what also creates the new Collision vigour within the pedigree as illustrated with the ADB/Merlot Hayze $425k litter, and not necessarily Collision himself being duplicated as you've predictably found that's thrown next to nothing, primarily because using Collision over and over again hasn't created anything new.

Most people call it linebreeding duplicating the same dog, when the effect it has on a pedigree is likely to be zero unless in a genetically viable position or in a recognised breeding theory. It's likely to be more effective when it's created through different individuals (Tesio again).

The 94% "breeding parallel" as it's often described in pedigree books, is a positive not a negative.

I think the mighty HEAD HONCHO and other greats have proved that "THEORY" wrong !

https:/ CLICK HERE

https:/ CLICK HERE

https:/ CLICK HERE

https:/ CLICK HERE

All those examples are genetically recognised xy linebreeding except for HH's ped which is in the x path.

If you are going to quote me pls quote me accurately ;)