Interesting current times. Especially in Ireland we have some absolute machines sired by a 350m sire in Ballymac Best - Pestana, Ballymac Anton, Ballymac Arminta.

Then you have G1 winner Antigua Fire sired by G1 winning stayer Vulturi.

The interesting part is both Pestana and Antigua Fire have the supreme cross of Ireland Staplers Jo duplicated through Larkhill Jo.

Even Wolfe (ex Tyrur Big Mike), sired by a strong 500m dog also has the same Staplers Jo through Larkhill Jo, as Pestana and Antigua Fire.

In Australia we can see a similar thing.

WA Oaks winner Cobargo sired by stayer Burn One Down. Flipping the pedigree of Striker Light sired by sprinter KC And All, for Group race success.

In yesteryear, we had sires in Australia that fit the same pattern. Venetian Court was a stayer that topped the VIC sires list. World Acclaim won over 700 and was leading sire in NSW. Even Awesome Assassin won over 6-700m.

Then you had the likes of Brother Fox (ex Little Blade) and Acacia Park (ex Wild Port) sired by Harold Park 457m specialists. Even Rapid Journey was sired by a similar speed sire type in Amerigo Magic.

Would be good to see a wider range of sires used these days...Im sure wed see some real superstars bred just like in years gone by...

I really would like to see people who own bitch's with White hope/sea serpent deep in the pedigree be taken alot more notice of, mainly the bitchs who have a direct line of sea serpent! Using sires that are also direct line of sea serpent, white hope, Under the globe, rocca bright, bellas prince, those were the trends of our past breeders. Sobbing sal is a perfect pedigree to study. imo sobbing sal should be line bred back to time n time again shes just one of my many interests

This topic was more started to showcase alternative angles to breeding the same result. In turn seeing a far wider variety of sires used than just Fernando Bale and Barcia Bale. Sires from all distances and price points!

Can Fully Loaded do similar? Litter brother to Poke The Bear and Out Of Range. Half brother to Hooked On Scotch.

What about an all distance dynamo like Blue Moon Rising...could he sire top class offspring? And Burn One Down, can he go from strength to strength...having already sired a Group winner?

Question is, which one?

Wild Port and Little Blade spring to mind !!!!

Sandro, what about Quick Jagger? Hes registered, but going to waste - CLICK HERE

Same cross in the above one a sprinter, one a stayer...Group class result - CLICK HERE

Thx for the intro Jack but I pretty much agree with Darren in that its always better for the breed not only if a more diverse range of sires were used but also sires that suited the brood were used for whatever reason.

I look at what sire has worked with a damline previously and try to recreate that sire at very high percentages within 5 generations through different individuals.

If you wanted to look at predominantly o/s sires nicking with Aus sires you don't have to look much further than the close relationship between Black Shiraz and Dorotas Wildcat for example.

There is a massive 94% connection within 5 generations through different individuals, between Black Shiraz, and Dorotas Wildcat's dam Droopys Danneel CLICK HERE . If you look at the blood quota table below as well as Ginger, Waverly Supreme & Temlee being cross duplicated, so too is Sabby's Image, Monalee Champion & Mandalass.......the only dog not cross duplicated is Gruelling Point in the 5th generation which means 15 out of 16 dogs in Black Shiraz's pedigree in the 5th generation are cross duplicated, which is 94% approx.

So if you had a brood bitch where Black Shiraz or his brother Big Ginger Boy for that matter, had been previously successful in her damline, it only seems logical to me that Dorotas Wildcat shld be on the short list of sires for your bitch.

Then its just a matter of:

(i) identifying other high % intensities preferably including the various sirelines in the pedigree,

(ii)trying to maintain an x path angle to a cornerstone brood or previously successful brood in x in the least(that's what I call proven - not so much the sire being proven),

(iii)trying to maintain an outcross angle preferably not in x so as to allow all those local x chromes a path to the pups and

(iv)topping it all off with an xy angle that'll hopefully give up a decent male in the litter.

Don't know if that's 'breeding outside the square' or not, just what's logical to me anyway.

I think every ones heard it all before Jack so I didn't bother as I basically agreed with what Darren was saying anyway. As always feel free to contact me if anyone wants anything clarified or is simply interested in breeding, I'm available most days after midday and my nos in the viewer profile. I prefer to discuss ideas over the pho with whoever calls sitting at a pc doing all the legwork as it takes so long to write up. Cheers.

Turanza Bale - Aston It Is
Banjo Boy - Big Flood
Bella Infrared - Hard Style Rico
Fernando Bale* - Drumbeater / More Deductions / Kelsos Norma

* just starting out so we dont know how good they may end up? But, look to have motors. However, right this minute the most expensive option and ranked #4 on the list.

You can get the same result using various sires

Always such a pleasure to read these comments, I'd like to add to that before the night is out, do the ground work ring up the stud master's do your due diligence ask as many reputable people tons of questions,do they throw chase an pace? narrow down your list with everything above an when the pups come out the other end you won't be surprised, DNA matching is still a lotto but by compounding that intensity of genetics you have a great chance to cluster those Geno's into your pups, the bigger the litter the better the odds. Darren is definitely correct

Interesting topic. Enjoying the read. DArren pedigrees of zero cool and zoom out also interesting for you perhaps. werent a lot of bitches with primo.

Thats a box ticked for me in the Showgirl queen x Fernando mating too come.