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Do you have questions about breeding theories?
Or do you need tips on how to rear your pups?

Breeding outside the square...page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 

Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

19 Aug 2020 01:46


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Achieving similar results...

Interesting current times. Especially in Ireland we have some absolute machines sired by a 350m sire in Ballymac Best - Pestana, Ballymac Anton, Ballymac Arminta.

Then you have G1 winner Antigua Fire sired by G1 winning stayer Vulturi.

The interesting part is both Pestana and Antigua Fire have the supreme cross of Ireland Staplers Jo duplicated through Larkhill Jo.

Even Wolfe (ex Tyrur Big Mike), sired by a strong 500m dog also has the same Staplers Jo through Larkhill Jo, as Pestana and Antigua Fire.

In Australia we can see a similar thing.

WA Oaks winner Cobargo sired by stayer Burn One Down. Flipping the pedigree of Striker Light sired by sprinter KC And All, for Group race success.

In yesteryear, we had sires in Australia that fit the same pattern. Venetian Court was a stayer that topped the VIC sires list. World Acclaim won over 700 and was leading sire in NSW. Even Awesome Assassin won over 6-700m.

Then you had the likes of Brother Fox (ex Little Blade) and Acacia Park (ex Wild Port) sired by Harold Park 457m specialists. Even Rapid Journey was sired by a similar speed sire type in Amerigo Magic.

Would be good to see a wider range of sires used these days...Iím sure weíd see some real superstars bred just like in years gone by...



Jack Zappala
Australia
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Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

19 Aug 2020 02:02


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Hi Darren,

I really would like to see people who own bitch's with White hope/sea serpent deep in the pedigree be taken alot more notice of, mainly the bitchs who have a direct line of sea serpent! Using sires that are also direct line of sea serpent, white hope, Under the globe, rocca bright, bellas prince, those were the trends of our past breeders. Sobbing sal is a perfect pedigree to study. imo sobbing sal should be line bred back to time n time again shes just one of my many interests


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

19 Aug 2020 02:16


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Thatís certainly outside the square Jack. No coincidence those old lines you mention were dominant way back then and now their modern day descents like Brett Lee and Head Honcho among others are current breeding influences. As they have been all the way through the decades!




Jack Zappala
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

19 Aug 2020 10:56


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That's what's so interesting is the influence it still has, I could build multiple cases n show how deep it is entangled which will leave you thinking is it really head honcho or is it the fact there's 80% intensity from the likes of Rocca bright under the globe... Am I prepared to showcase that data probly not as it took me so long to get it with the collaboration of another breeder


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

19 Aug 2020 11:39


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Fair enough...all good! We all have our little weapons when it comes to breeding. Which weíve spent 1000s of hours collating! Respect you keeping them to yourself!

This topic was more started to showcase alternative angles to breeding the same result. In turn seeing a far wider variety of sires used than just Fernando Bale and Barcia Bale. Sires from all distances and price points!




Jack Zappala
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

19 Aug 2020 21:31


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Before the wheeler reign we use to see alot more where's Pedro, bombastic they were the go to sires, I'd like to see Fernando bitchs go to US dogs as the gable doge doubling in the 4th gen has been successfully. Barcia on the other hand has more room to move with alot more sires,


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Aug 2020 00:42


 (1)
 (0)


No argument there...you know my thoughts on Fernando Bale bitches to US sires...you get the same 4x4 Gable Dodge as - CLICK HERE



Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Aug 2020 00:52


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Guess Aussie Infrared is a classic case. While a 500m winner. His main distances were below 500m. And look at how heís started at stud.

Can Fully Loaded do similar? Litter brother to Poke The Bear and Out Of Range. Half brother to Hooked On Scotch.

What about an all distance dynamo like Blue Moon Rising...could he sire top class offspring? And Burn One Down, can he go from strength to strength...having already sired a Group winner?


Sandro Bechini
Australia
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Posts 18313
Dogs 14498 / Races 1818

20 Aug 2020 02:14


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The point is that there is so much lack of strength in the breeding ranks the time is ripe for a staying sire to make his mark

Question is, which one?


Mark Staines
Australia
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Posts 3636
Dogs 68 / Races 14

20 Aug 2020 02:37


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A sire either has the ability to throw good offspring or doesn't !!!!!
Wind back the Clock too the halcyon Days at Harold Park and some of the U Track flying machines that made good sires !!!!

Wild Port and Little Blade spring to mind !!!!


Jack Zappala
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Aug 2020 02:45


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I'd like to see Ryan add his 2 cents into this topic


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Aug 2020 02:47


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Agree, thatís more to the point Mark. The genetic make up of a sire...whether sub 500m or 700m. Why I mentioned Fully Loaded. His brother Out Of Range a 500-700m dog is at stud in Ireland and his 1/2 bro Hooked On Scotch probably could have run 700m as well. Could Fully Loaded even outdo his more illustrious brothers?

Sandro, what about Quick Jagger? Heís registered, but going to waste - CLICK HERE


Jack Zappala
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Aug 2020 02:50


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 (0)


Darren Leeson wrote:

Thatís more to the point. The genetic make up of a sire...whether sub 500m or 700m. Why I mentioned Fully Loaded. His brother Out Of Range a 500-700m dog is at stud in Ireland and his 1/2 bro Hooked On Scotch probably could have run 700m as well. Could Fully Loaded even outdo his more illustrious brothers?

That's very interesting about fully loaded I can't see why he wouldn't able to, could we be looking at the next hot family to be superstars at stud I think so

Sandro, what about Quick Jagger? Heís registered, but going to waste - CLICK HERE





Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Aug 2020 03:13


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Who knows Jack, but Droopys Kewell is big in sires in Ireland and DK nicks with plenty of lines found in Australia - CLICK HERE

Same cross in the above one a sprinter, one a stayer...Group class result - CLICK HERE


Jack Zappala
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Aug 2020 03:18


 (1)
 (0)


Definitely a dominant Geno in Nikki fields



Ryan Vanderwert
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4784
Dogs 4 / Races 0

20 Aug 2020 04:21


 (2)
 (0)


jack zappala wrote:

I'd like to see Ryan add his 2 cents into this topic

Thx for the intro Jack but I pretty much agree with Darren in that its always better for the breed not only if a more diverse range of sires were used but also sires that suited the brood were used for whatever reason.

I look at what sire has worked with a damline previously and try to recreate that sire at very high percentages within 5 generations through different individuals.

If you wanted to look at predominantly o/s sires nicking with Aus sires you don't have to look much further than the close relationship between Black Shiraz and Dorotas Wildcat for example.

There is a massive 94% connection within 5 generations through different individuals, between Black Shiraz, and Dorotas Wildcat's dam Droopys Danneel CLICK HERE . If you look at the blood quota table below as well as Ginger, Waverly Supreme & Temlee being cross duplicated, so too is Sabby's Image, Monalee Champion & Mandalass.......the only dog not cross duplicated is Gruelling Point in the 5th generation which means 15 out of 16 dogs in Black Shiraz's pedigree in the 5th generation are cross duplicated, which is 94% approx.

So if you had a brood bitch where Black Shiraz or his brother Big Ginger Boy for that matter, had been previously successful in her damline, it only seems logical to me that Dorotas Wildcat shld be on the short list of sires for your bitch.

Then its just a matter of:

(i) identifying other high % intensities preferably including the various sirelines in the pedigree,

(ii)trying to maintain an x path angle to a cornerstone brood or previously successful brood in x in the least(that's what I call proven - not so much the sire being proven),

(iii)trying to maintain an outcross angle preferably not in x so as to allow all those local x chromes a path to the pups and

(iv)topping it all off with an xy angle that'll hopefully give up a decent male in the litter.

Don't know if that's 'breeding outside the square' or not, just what's logical to me anyway.

I think every ones heard it all before Jack so I didn't bother as I basically agreed with what Darren was saying anyway. As always feel free to contact me if anyone wants anything clarified or is simply interested in breeding, I'm available most days after midday and my nos in the viewer profile. I prefer to discuss ideas over the pho with whoever calls sitting at a pc doing all the legwork as it takes so long to write up. Cheers.


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 843
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Aug 2020 07:30


 (1)
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Another great topic,& as usual,we are being treated to excellent advice from some very knowledgeable breeders,& their expertise in breeding,genetics & general first hand experiences.
Abslolutely priceless fella's,thank you all for sharing you're very learned knoweledge,& i for one can't get enough of it.



Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 275
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Aug 2020 08:51


 (1)
 (0)


Look at crossing Flying Penske and Primo Uno to varying sires [and price point].

Turanza Bale - Aston It Is
Banjo Boy - Big Flood
Bella Infrared - Hard Style Rico
Fernando Bale* - Drumbeater / More Deductions / Kelsoís Norma

* just starting out so we donít know how good they may end up? But, look to have motors. However, right this minute the most expensive option and ranked #4 on the list.

You can get the same result using various sires




Jack Zappala
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 76
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Aug 2020 13:57


 (0)
 (0)


Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

jack zappala wrote:

I'd like to see Ryan add his 2 cents into this topic

Thx for the intro Jack but I pretty much agree with Darren in that its always better for the breed not only if a more diverse range of sires were used but also sires that suited the brood were used for whatever reason.

I look at what sire has worked with a damline previously and try to recreate that sire at very high percentages within 5 generations through different individuals.

If you wanted to look at predominantly o/s sires nicking with Aus sires you don't have to look much further than the close relationship between Black Shiraz and Dorotas Wildcat for example.

There is a massive 94% connection within 5 generations through different individuals, between Black Shiraz, and Dorotas Wildcat's dam Droopys Danneel CLICK HERE . If you look at the blood quota table below as well as Ginger, Waverly Supreme & Temlee being cross duplicated, so too is Sabby's Image, Monalee Champion & Mandalass.......the only dog not cross duplicated is Gruelling Point in the 5th generation which means 15 out of 16 dogs in Black Shiraz's pedigree in the 5th generation are cross duplicated, which is 94% approx.

So if you had a brood bitch where Black Shiraz or his brother Big Ginger Boy for that matter, had been previously successful in her damline, it only seems logical to me that Dorotas Wildcat shld be on the short list of sires for your bitch.

Then its just a matter of:

(i) identifying other high % intensities preferably including the various sirelines in the pedigree,

(ii)trying to maintain an x path angle to a cornerstone brood or previously successful brood in x in the least(that's what I call proven - not so much the sire being proven),

(iii)trying to maintain an outcross angle preferably not in x so as to allow all those local x chromes a path to the pups and

(iv)topping it all off with an xy angle that'll hopefully give up a decent male in the litter.

Don't know if that's 'breeding outside the square' or not, just what's logical to me anyway.

I think every ones heard it all before Jack so I didn't bother as I basically agreed with what Darren was saying anyway. As always feel free to contact me if anyone wants anything clarified or is simply interested in breeding, I'm available most days after midday and my nos in the viewer profile. I prefer to discuss ideas over the pho with whoever calls sitting at a pc doing all the legwork as it takes so long to write up. Cheers.

Always such a pleasure to read these comments, I'd like to add to that before the night is out, do the ground work ring up the stud master's do your due diligence ask as many reputable people tons of questions,do they throw chase an pace? narrow down your list with everything above an when the pups come out the other end you won't be surprised, DNA matching is still a lotto but by compounding that intensity of genetics you have a great chance to cluster those Geno's into your pups, the bigger the litter the better the odds. Darren is definitely correct




Andrew Varasdi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1217
Dogs 2 / Races 11

20 Aug 2020 18:00


 (0)
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Darren Leeson wrote:

Look at crossing Flying Penske and Primo Uno to varying sires [and price point].

Turanza Bale - Aston It Is
Banjo Boy - Big Flood
Bella Infrared - Hard Style Rico
Fernando Bale* - Drumbeater / More Deductions / Kelsoís Norma

* just starting out so we donít know how good they may end up? But, look to have motors. However, right this minute the most expensive option and ranked #4 on the list.

You can get the same result using various sires

Interesting topic. Enjoying the read. DArren pedigrees of zero cool and zoom out also interesting for you perhaps. werent a lot of bitches with primo.

Thatís a box ticked for me in the Showgirl queen x Fernando mating too come.


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