The Greyhound-Data Forum has been created to act as a platform for greyhound enthusiasts to share information on this magnificent animal called a greyhound.
Greyhound-Data reserve the right to remove any post that is off topic, advertisements or opinions they consider to be offensive.
If you answer then please try to stay on topic. It's absolutely okay to answer in a broader scope but don't hijack posts by switching to something off topic.
In case you see an insulting post: DO NOT REPLY TO IT!
Use the report button to inform the moderators so that we can delete it.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? Or do you need tips on how to rear your pups?
Line breeding
Dave Ambler United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 17 Dec 2023 10:34
(0)
(0)
Hi Guys I'm trying to try understand the linebreeding theory of bringing back strong damlines. i've read what Federico Tesio achieved through breeding horse racing & from my understanding the damline plays a massive part. the testmating page on here gives good information but i was wondering if there is anyway you can go beyond from the future litter displayed to the next future litter after? any advise would be greatly appreciated. Kindest Regards Dave
Nathan Trigg Australia (Verified User) Posts 516 Dogs 20 / Races 28 18 Dec 2023 02:11
(1)
(0)
Hi Dave, Mate Im not sure if its exactly what your after, you can use the expert function in the test mating page to create a second generation virtual test mating.
Dave Ambler United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 18 Dec 2023 06:22
(0)
(0)
Thanks Nathan I will give it a go, I was starting to think I had posted something that wasnt possible after all the views with 0 replies. Im trying to bring back a strong damline that has produced good dogs, we have decent broods that look to have had damlines diluted over the years, Westmead Flight has played a big part in the past. Appreciate your help Regards Dave
William Porterfield United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 18 Dogs 0 / Races 0 18 Dec 2023 08:38
(0)
(0)
hi dave ive pm you last night
Stephen William Porter Portugal (Verified User) Posts 6 Dogs 0 / Races 0 15 Jan 2024 18:57
(0)
(0)
Dave
If you send me your email I will send you some data regarding linebreeding. To:
These include Roedhelm Billie with Lautaro then Romeo Command
Steve
John Tracey Australia (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 16 Jan 2024 11:31
(0)
(0)
Hi Dave,
What you are looking at is theory around the Co-ifficient fo Inbreeding and the modern theories in relation to risk breeding. You can google any amount of modern theories and get awn idea on test mating which gives you an inbred factor. /the DNA testing companies produce a lot of information on COI and state that DNA testing leads to a more accurate form of risk assessments using particular Sire and Dams. I find the test mate of Greyhound data very comprehensive. You can test mate into the future by using the more complex search. I am currently hVING THE COI risk factors compared with the COI factors between the written pedigrees and the DNA tests on the same greyhounds. (to check). It is very interesting reading and well in advance of the Count Tessio work on Arabrian Horses.If you read through all the theory you will get an insight to what you are doing.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 18 Jan 2024 12:03
(0)
(0)
John Tracey wrote:
..........I am currently hVING THE COI risk factors compared with the COI factors between the written pedigrees and the DNA tests on the same greyhounds.........
If you don't mind me asking John what's the process in acquiring DNA tests on greyhounds? I didn't think it was freely available. Cheers.
John Tracey Australia (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Jan 2024 09:51
(1)
(0)
Hi Ryan, The racehorse industry of which I came from originally uses DNA testing for serveral purposes relating to horses and testing is available for Canines through most of these companies. There is a wide world hook up of data banks. Both the DNA companies and the greyhound experts on what You are calling calling line breeding espouse to the theories (science) surrounding the coefficient of Inbreeding. The difference is that the companies believe that their tests are more accurate. My feeling is that the data base of the greyhounds is probably fairly small and the greyhound data base s very comprehensible. However if you are looking at things scientifically you need to put things to the test. If you are considering testing greyhounds yourself then you only need to google COI and read the blurb and follow the instructions. I think that the modern control boards in greyhound racing should be following the modern science instead old methods that people follow theories that even confound experienced mathematicians. This thread started with questions around foundation mares. Both horses and dogs records go back a few hundred years but the greyhounds turn over more generations in the time than the horses. with the advances in E-track and the tracing of all greyhounds we should eventually break the DNA code in breeding. By following the American style of Statistics as has happened with our top greyhound breeders I purchase vials of four stud dogs when the prices were low. Of the 4 three have won the Million Dollar races. I bought around the fact that Ebby Miss came up as a foundation dam. So I bought Aussie Infrared, saved on Hard Style Ricco leading sire from Bella Infrared and Shilarchi Leading stud re Bales. My fourth and main pick is Ebby Jet Power. The proceeds from my investment go towards my second companion book on Greyhounds following My Adventure of co author publishing Going To theDogs.
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4499 Dogs 70 / Races 14 19 Jan 2024 10:43
(2)
(0)
Maybe if Scott No Idea and other DUDS representing NSW Participants didn't hamstring the industry in NSW for decades via the despicable INTER CODE AGREEMENT such research on Greyhounds via DNA would be a lot more affordable BUT !!!!!
DNA testing of Greyhounds in Australia commenced in the late 80's early 90's and it wasn't done in the USA and Ireland / UK until years later !
IMO pedigrees prior to DNA testing are at best suspect !
John Tracey Australia (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Jan 2024 19:09
(1)
(0)
Hi Mark, History supports what you are saying. When greyhounds were by comparison better funded in NSW than the other codes (not for profit racing between 1950 to 1972 extra funding was used for greyhound breeding science. Funding following was dud funding for all animal racing and worse still for greyhound racing. Victoria hgreyhounds started off TAB racing with 9% of a better system. than the `15% dropping to 13% of the NSW Treasury system.. The irregularities you mention on the old record have been Factored in to the test mates. When I waS breeding greyhounds prior to DNA I did a five year study on colour coding and checked the various theories. The experimental error was significant and many and various theories had no scientific base. The brood itch series at Young over 6 years proved to me that the gut feelings of the leading breeders were much more accurate than theory fromrincomplete records. The work I did in those days that took forever to assess can now be done in a few hours by computer programming. The problem with the modern application is that it partly produced by persons who do not have skin on the ground. However i think that this will change if the central body can complete e-trac.If the enigma code which led to the creation of computers breaking German code in WW2 was produced today it would not take long for the code to be broken. I suspect the same conditions will apply to breaking the DNA code secrets in greyhound breeding. Dont forget that the first man on the moon was powered by a computer with less strength than the PC's of today. Interesting times.
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4499 Dogs 70 / Races 14 19 Jan 2024 21:38
(1)
(0)
Hi John,
Thoroughly enjoyed the Book and glad to see you back on GD !
It's been a while m8 !
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 21 Jan 2024 12:44
(0)
(0)
John Tracey wrote:
Hi Ryan, The racehorse industry of which I came from originally uses DNA testing for serveral purposes relating to horses and testing is available for Canines through most of these companies. There is a wide world hook up of data banks. Both the DNA companies and the greyhound experts on what You are calling calling line breeding espouse to the theories (science) surrounding the coefficient of Inbreeding. The difference is that the companies believe that their tests are more accurate. My feeling is that the data base of the greyhounds is probably fairly small and the greyhound data base s very comprehensible. However if you are looking at things scientifically you need to put things to the test. If you are considering testing greyhounds yourself then you only need to google COI and read the blurb and follow the instructions. I think that the modern control boards in greyhound racing should be following the modern science instead old methods that people follow theories that even confound experienced mathematicians. This thread started with questions around foundation mares. Both horses and dogs records go back a few hundred years but the greyhounds turn over more generations in the time than the horses. with the advances in E-track and the tracing of all greyhounds we should eventually break the DNA code in breeding. By following the American style of Statistics as has happened with our top greyhound breeders I purchase vials of four stud dogs when the prices were low. Of the 4 three have won the Million Dollar races. I bought around the fact that Ebby Miss came up as a foundation dam. So I bought Aussie Infrared, saved on Hard Style Ricco leading sire from Bella Infrared and Shilarchi Leading stud re Bales. My fourth and main pick is Ebby Jet Power. The proceeds from my investment go towards my second companion book on Greyhounds following My Adventure of co author publishing Going To theDogs.
So it's not freely available publicly then.
When you say this John:
John Tracey wrote:
..........I am currently hVING THE COI risk factors compared with the COI factors between the written pedigrees and the DNA tests on the same greyhounds.........
How are you getting the DNA testing database if you don't mind me asking to do the comparison ?
John Tracey wrote:
......By following the American style of Statistics as has happened with our top greyhound breeders I purchase vials of four stud dogs when the prices were low. Of the 4 three have won the Million Dollar races. I bought around the fact that Ebby Miss came up as a foundation dam..............
Could you also expand about this in more detail please especially the last sentence ?
John Tracey Australia (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 21 Jan 2024 20:20
(0)
(0)
Hi Ryan, Thanks for responding I will answer all your questions in order its a massive subject and itv takes a long time to break research (data) into theory. Freely available?. Taking this to mean is all the information available through the public record and is the information free of cost. In my privileged position of being able to focus on the subject and with a level of experience in research and familiar with the various information sources most of the information on the public record is freely available to me. However early in my interests inanimate breeding I spent considerable time like everyone else on a range of other things ass well.
Freely aVAilable on the internet are the National Stud Books digitised of the various countries some specifically on greyhound racing and others on human and other animal forms. In Australia (including NZ) the National Stud Book is digitised and available to everyone free by download. There is a charge if you want a hard copy. Greyhound Data has a free service but to use the test mate their is a small charge. The Greyhound Recorder and other publications are on line and provide statistical information on both handicap and group racing. Fast track GRV provides details of all stud services Nationally. Various control authorities produce annual reports Inquiries summary and selected submissions are available. Documents can be obtained from libraries on visits. Ranges of books and articles on breeding specifically animal racing, greyhound, canines in general, humans are generally available at library.free of cost. Expert advice on breeding choices are available for a small fee. What is not available is the number of vials of frozen seaman stored for each greyhound. This can make commercial breeders decisions more risky. The 14 services per month before AI meant that commercially you could work out the exact numbers year to date. The danger now is that with restricted outlets to produce AI some breeders might be in a position to kn ow the pool and get an unfair advantage over others. So i would suggest that the scope of the AI pool should be freely available.
While much of the information is available it is fragmented and needs to be brought together otherwise ev very breeder is spending time putting general information together to make sense of future enterprise.
Breeders aarfev obviously entitled to commercial in confidence but somethings are simply universal.
Now to the nub.
Line breeding theories suffer in my opinion from the modern science that suggests a common ancestor. The DNA companies generally believe that their basic testing can measure health and health predictions. As far as i can ascertain the greyhound test maTE VIS Far advanced compared to most of the DNA company testing. However i am prepared to have va look at what they are saying.
If you're looking at Greyhound Breeding as a sole commercial enterprise you need to know the year to date of the breeding in each state each month. You can get this information freely on Fast Track but a thousand people spending hours each week doing the same thing is not a good use of time resources.
There is intelligence out there that is not able to bet assessed including romantic and celebrity status of greyhound controlling unit prices for sale and syndication. This is understandably commercial in confidence.
Happy to continue with your questions. I did not have the success of the great breeders of the time but if reviewing mistakes (you can look back on your previous breeding exercises by Test Mate one can see where improvements can be made.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 22 Jan 2024 02:01
(0)
(0)
Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
John Tracey wrote:
Hi Ryan, The racehorse industry of which I came from originally uses DNA testing for serveral purposes relating to horses and testing is available for Canines through most of these companies. There is a wide world hook up of data banks. Both the DNA companies and the greyhound experts on what You are calling calling line breeding espouse to the theories (science) surrounding the coefficient of Inbreeding. The difference is that the companies believe that their tests are more accurate. My feeling is that the data base of the greyhounds is probably fairly small and the greyhound data base s very comprehensible. However if you are looking at things scientifically you need to put things to the test. If you are considering testing greyhounds yourself then you only need to google COI and read the blurb and follow the instructions. I think that the modern control boards in greyhound racing should be following the modern science instead old methods that people follow theories that even confound experienced mathematicians. This thread started with questions around foundation mares. Both horses and dogs records go back a few hundred years but the greyhounds turn over more generations in the time than the horses. with the advances in E-track and the tracing of all greyhounds we should eventually break the DNA code in breeding. By following the American style of Statistics as has happened with our top greyhound breeders I purchase vials of four stud dogs when the prices were low. Of the 4 three have won the Million Dollar races. I bought around the fact that Ebby Miss came up as a foundation dam. So I bought Aussie Infrared, saved on Hard Style Ricco leading sire from Bella Infrared and Shilarchi Leading stud re Bales. My fourth and main pick is Ebby Jet Power. The proceeds from my investment go towards my second companion book on Greyhounds following My Adventure of co author publishing Going To theDogs.
So it's not freely available publicly then.
When you say this John:
John Tracey wrote:
..........I am currently hVING THE COI risk factors compared with the COI factors between the written pedigrees and the DNA tests on the same greyhounds.........
How are you getting the DNA testing database if you don't mind me asking to do the comparison ?
John Tracey wrote:
......By following the American style of Statistics as has happened with our top greyhound breeders I purchase vials of four stud dogs when the prices were low. Of the 4 three have won the Million Dollar races. I bought around the fact that Ebby Miss came up as a foundation dam..............
Could you also expand about this in more detail please especially the last sentence ?
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 22 Jan 2024 02:05
(0)
(0)
Hi John,
A little about me.
I've been involved with greyhounds since 1980 and been contributing on greyhound data for 17 yrs.
I know what's around to access on fast track, g-data, Greyhounds Australasia paying $190 for a DNA test etc., I'm happy with that.
I'm also happy to accept there's something better than linebreeding and since DNA info isn't freely accessible to say me, unlike it is to you, I would just like your idea, sighting specific examples when you say something like this:
John Tracey wrote:
..........I am currently hVING THE COI risk factors compared with the COI factors between the written pedigrees and the DNA tests on the same greyhounds.........
Can you give me a specific example of this please, so I can see what you are talking about?
Also when you say this :
John Tracey wrote:
......By following the American style of Statistics as has happened with our top greyhound breeders I purchase vials of four stud dogs when the prices were low. Of the 4 three have won the Million Dollar races. I bought around the fact that Ebby Miss came up as a foundation dam..............
I appreciate it can be a massive task, but again some specific examples for me to appreciate how Ebby Miss came about to be a foundation dam please ?
Thank you for your valuable time and consideration.
p.s. apologies for duplicating the post above this one.
John Tracey Australia (Verified User) Posts 5 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2024 06:15
(0)
(0)
Hi Ryan, thanks for keep getting back to me on the breeding subject. am aware of your professional standing in aspects of breeding. I ceased breeding greyhounds to go onto Government and industry control boards. In 2007 the year that you started using the facilities of Greyhound Data i had left the greyhound control boards and been appointed hon Historian and I curated several exhibitions round NSW, I also was involved in the in house GRNSW History book and later wasthe co author of Goingt To The Dogs which is the first stage of a further companion book to be published with a wider public interest. I am very interested in your research as well as other experts on breeding who have committed to the chapter. I will send you the draft manuscript if you are interested. Being 86 years old I have plenty of time except time itself. I have Accepted an invitation to attend both Greyhound exhibitions and Museums in Melbourne (Sportsground and Sandown track) in mid April, Also I intend doing a local history at Diamond Creek including visiting the grave site of Temlee if it still exists. I am under the pump at the moment with proposed exhibitions in NSW, If you are mobile and willing we could catch up sometime in Melbourne. Cheers john Tracey.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 22 Jan 2024 07:26
(0)
(0)
No worries John, always interested in anything greyhound breeding. Cheers.
I used to live around the corner from Tony Merino who stood Temlee and wld chat to him on the odd occasion. He quite liked the look of the little bitch I was walking and we talked about his bitch Whiteside Lady who had finished racing at that time and their similarities.
I'll keep an eye out for you in April. g/l with your future endeavors and thanks again for your time.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
