Isa Brown (dam 0 wins from 8 starts)
Bettys Angel (G/dam one start 5th Geelong)
Slater (dam 53 starts for 5 wins)
Finlandia (dam 52 starts for 2 wins)
Knocka Norris/Oriental Fire (G/dam 15 starts for 2 wins & legless)
Hotshot (dam unraced, G/dam won 2 from 28)
Vapour Whirl and Rocky (dam 19 starts 0 wins)
Fenceline (dam 23 starts for 3 wins)
Primo Uno (dam unraced)
Bombastic Shiraz (dam 36 starts for 4 wins) .. and thats without even trying

David .. I cannot believe you would write .. I've been writing about greyhounds for almost 30 years and have spoken to breeders of many of the greats in that time. In all that time I cannot remember talking to a breeder of a champion or even a great dog who said the dam was "legless" .. thats absolutely ridiculous

I fully accept the argument that if you keep your eyes shut to all other factors you are statistically better off breeding from a well performed brood than a poorly performed one - the point of the other side of the argument is that we need not be blind to all other factors, and some of us like to back our judgement that we can pick a bitch with breeding prospects on the basis of things other than Group or city winning performances.

CLICK HERE Would any of you great believers in stats like to write off this bitch and her littermates on the basis that her dam was not a city winner?? - I dare you - LOL

I always use betting analogies to make the point. The same people who are questioning the stats, should consider this: would they be willing to back all 7 runners in a race at Albion Park against Surf Lorian at 6-4 each, even none of them can break 31.00, and SL can break 30.00.

Now SL could be beaten,and one of the slow dogs would win, but by taking 6-4 about every runner, they are still guaranteeing they will lose money.

Seems ridiculous, until you consider that this exactly what they are willing to do by breeding out of slow bitches. Yes, they may produce a champion eventually,it does happen, but they'll go broke trying.

Prizemoney paid is the same regardless of the risk you take, and it does seem odd that people are willing to take a greater risk, for exactly the same reward.

You know if these people were punters instead of breeders, there'd still be a thousand bookies in NSW.

jeff

Nobody is questioning whether legless bitches produce fast dogs.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is.Would you rather breed with paua to burn,highly blessed,flying amy,etc etc,or would you rather breed with a bitch who had 28 starts without winning.

The next question is.Which one is statistically more likely to produce a fast racer.

And the notion that not everyone is fortunate enough to breed from a group winner is not valid,its not important to the answer.

From memory, she didnt like to win real often, but did make the odd mistake.

jeff

2 points.

(i)If you have been reading Geoff's posts, in the last week alone he has given many examples.
Geoff Collins

(Verified User)
Posts 218
31 Oct 2007 07:45

Breed from the best city class race bitches hey ???? .. the track commentator said yesterday that this is the best young litter in Queensland .. and we have to go back to the FOURTH DAM to find a city winner .. not only have the last THREE DAMS of this litter, never won a race in the city, they have never been placed in the city .. but these dams are all litter sisters to top class gallopers .. Anniston litter sister to Gr 1 winner Isa Brown .. Goddess of Fire litter sister to Gr 1 Awesome Assassin
Oriental Angel
22 starts 7 wins 3 placings
1 win was a Gold Coast mdn qually,
4 wins at Capalaba, fastest time of 20.07
2 wins Gold Coast 457m 26.05, 429m 24.48

Anniston
16 starts (inc 5 quallies) 2 wins 7 placings (4 placings were in quallies)
Won Gawler 31.26 & Strathalbyn 32.59

Goddess Of Fire
8 starts 0 wins 2 placings

Geoff Collins

(Verified User)
Posts 218
31 Oct 2007 10:09

Paul .. theres been a lot of debate recently about the merits of breeding with the best performed bitches from a litter compared to the lessor performed litter sisters .. in this case the lessor performed have proven to be the better ... personally I believe producers are producers, sometimes its the best bitch in the litter and sometimes its not ... and thats probably vindicated by the number of examples thrown up by each side of the debate
The January 2000 edition of the US greyhound review listed the top ranked brood bitches over the 100 years of the 20th century in America .. if we look at the top 10 with a few quotes about their track ability we can see that it takes all kinds ..
#1 Kinto Nebo ... unsuccessful campaigner, unimpressive in many ways
#2 Miss Gorgeous ... brilliant race bitch, sold for record price
#3 Buzz Off ... moderate performer, broke leg after 7 starts
#4 Elsie Jones ... raced Grade A, Southland
#5 Gravel Gertie ... unraced spook who couldnt be handled
#6 Royal Princess ... unimpressive speed given away
#7 Gorgeous Babe* ... Aussie bitch
#8 Miss Judy ... quality coursing and track bitch
#9 Fawn Rita .... unraced, most of our good bitches never went to the track .. owner
#10 Lahoma Judy ... Good quality race bitch, won 18 St Pete

The top 3 three are the only three bitches inducted into the US Hall of Fame as brood bitches

(ii) Certainly I agree that you can compare many horse breeding theories with the breeding of greyhounds which I myself do. However the thing about racehorse breeding is that they are nowhere near linebred/inbred as greyhounds are, and therefore there are far more examples of 'Moopsy and Boopsy' types in quality greyhounds than there will ever be in racehorses.

Just take a look at 'the spanker mare' theory, we can easily replicate something v/similar in greyhounds in less than 1/4 of the time.

Everytime a Goeff Collins produces one, let alone 3 examples to counter the best to the best arguements, there really is no best to the best arguement is there?

Cyril, I'm not ignoring you , but I believe you are Dix in disguise (apologies if you're not).

Wrong again Mr Paranoia

jeff

Any dog that clearly breaks 30.00 at a Melbourne City Track would be considerd "City Class", wouldn't it?

This story was told to me directly by Don Cuddy .. Don is an Irishman and an absolute gentleman and was rated in the NGA review as the greatest trainer in America in the 20th century .. goes something like ..

Don was training dogs for Pat Dalton at Hollywood and after the first couple of seasons they retired the Grade A bitches for breeding and sold off the Grade D bitches .. as Don said that came back to haunt them as although the Grade A bitches produced well, the best dogs at the track over the next few years all came from the Grade D bitches they sold off

Don told this story to legendary US breeder Ed Moses and Don said that Ed laughed and told him that that has been his recipe for success, in most cases he always sold off the Grade A bitches and kept the Grade D bitches to breed with himself

Another star racer, Whisky Assassin .. his G/dam was sold off cheaply by Paul Wheeler .. don't know her race form but she obviously wasn't a champion

Jeff H,

You may no more about cayenne bale,but i would have thought nothing cheap was bred by troy provost.He definintely raced the bitch(princess whisky) who made the final of the group 3 at nowra,whom i assume he bred also.

Going on what some have posted, they seem to think that once a bitch passes the post on a track that happens to be in " the city" that they have their super broody (lol) By looking at it this way you have already made a massive error, because in your reasoning a bitch that wins at Angle pk is the = of a bitch that wins at the meadows/sandown (sorry to some be she is not). The moopsy and Boopsy breeders like myself have to look deeper, looking for confirmation, temperment, size, health, mothering instincts etc etc etc etc etc, by siding with the "best to the best gang" you are more or less saying all these extremely important qualities are of little importance to you.

In the big picture, if anyone is flying blind it is the best to the best gang, as you freely admit you look for only one thing.

Very funny!

If you had to take a Grade A bitch OR a grade D bitch picked at random and the only thing you knew about them was that one was Grade A and one was Grade D - You would have to pick the Grade A.

If the argument was reduced to this I would have to swap sides!! LOL

A touch naive?True temptation,sandis me mum,bettys angel,leprechaun pace etc.All fast angle park winners.However to suggest a prospective breeder or buyer would give a 30.70 angle park winner high accolades for deeds on the track.You canna be serious.

A city winning bitch from this theory would be a moopsy theory bitch if she raced in a tougher state.

Just another flaw in this theory.