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Rob Tyler Australia (Verified User) Posts 5176 Dogs 64 / Races 113 20 Dec 2007 22:50
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Guys, I would like to start a topic in relation to split litters.In this day and age with rising costs,stud fees,implanting etc for our broods ,I have been giving serious thought as to why we cannot have a bitch implanted by more than 1 stud dog at each season.You may have a bitch that is coming close to the end of her breeding days....she is on season but I am unsure what sire to pick from from (either dog A or dog B)......With the advent of DNA, what would stop us using both dogs...sure we will end up having some pups by Dog A and some by Dog B but if we DNA the litter you are going to know the parentage anyway. The controlling authorities claim that DNA is accurate so cannot see a problem there.For an example...Betty 's Angel is on season,Paul Bartolo cannot decide between Token Prince or Spiral Nikita....he puts both into her and at 12 weeks(after DNA) he finds out he has 4 pups by TP and 5 by Spiral.He breaks them in at 13 months,finds out the Spiral's are champs and the Token's are chumps....immediately he knows that he wont have to wait for the next season to use Token Prince...he can go and find something else.Saved himself time by not having to wait for the next season...The bitch was already on the operating table anyway getting her implant done so those costs shouldn't be much higher.....I feel that the advantages we can gain from doing this far outweigh any disadvantage.The show dogs have been going along these lines for ages....love to open up a debate and hear what others feel on the subject.I realise to some that this may be a bit of "Science fiction" but I am putting a proposal together now to put to the Authorities....whether anything comes out of it I don't know but I really feel strongly about this....especially with the huge impact frozen straws are having around the world.We heard before about the Stud dog camps claiming restraint of trade by restricting how many services they can or cannot have...why then can't we as breeders be in a position to do something similar.Remember,DNA would be taken before registering the pups so there is no chance of anything corrupt happening.Interested in any comments....good or bad. Rob Tyler Reason Kennels
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 20 Dec 2007 23:00
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I had a similar thought years ago, using surrogate mothers. Removing eggs from a champion bitch and inseminating them before placing them into another bitch.
Wayne Garner Australia (Verified User) Posts 6124 Dogs 41 / Races 43 20 Dec 2007 23:08
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that would be one of the best things that could happen to our breeding industrie,, just imagin what we could be getting in our pups,, it would be great if this country had breeders make a group of breeders take the stand for breeders,, owners and trainers have their say,, any way im all for it boys,, chers wayne
Wayne Garner Australia (Verified User) Posts 6124 Dogs 41 / Races 43 20 Dec 2007 23:11
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rob,, if you get the chance have a chat to dr phil davis,riverstone pats deans ex,, he mentioned this to me 7yrs ago,, he has show dogs,, he is leading vet at syd uni,, cheers again wayne,
Rob Tyler Australia (Verified User) Posts 5176 Dogs 64 / Races 113 20 Dec 2007 23:17
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Wayne, I have spoken to John Newell about this many times (he is with me 100%) and as I said before , I am in the process of putting a proposal to Greyhounds Australasia. I just wanted to see what the feedback would be before I finalise everything.My opinion...it will change the entire Greyhound Racing industry for the better.It has so many advantages...bitches only have a limited lifespan in the breeding barn...wouldn't it be great to know that instead of a bitch having only say,3 litters in her life,she actually has 6 (albeit same amount of pups but different sires) or another example is if the quality of straw is average,at least by putting 2 straws in her she will have more chance to conceive and therefore not lose that season altogether.As I said though...I would love to hear from anyone who has an opinion...good or bad. Rob Tyler Reason Kennels
Charlie Bizkala Australia (Verified User) Posts 146 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Dec 2007 23:19
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like the concept but afraid to say there is no chance in a frozen hell the powers that be could even cope with this concept let alone administer the idea.
Carole Brown Australia (Verified User) Posts 32355 Dogs 185 / Races 2 20 Dec 2007 23:26
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Rob, Great minds think alike ! I have been thinking about exactly the same thing for months, and was going to mention it to you when you said last week that you were going to suggest something. The replies you get will be interesting. You can have my vote for yes. Best wishes, Carole.
Rob Tyler Australia (Verified User) Posts 5176 Dogs 64 / Races 113 20 Dec 2007 23:27
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Why is that Charlie....has anyone ever tried? That is the problem ....noone wants to at least have a go! Mate,in the early 70's they wanted nothing to do with Artificial Insemination ! Hey ,If it doesn't get off the ground,I am not going to jump off the bloody Harbour Bridge....it is a idea of mine that I have had for a long time and I am going to run with it ...if it doesn't come off then it can join the other times I have had a crack at something and it didn't work! I won't die wondering though...that is for sure.Thanks Carole !
Charlie Bizkala Australia (Verified User) Posts 146 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Dec 2007 23:53
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Rob Tyler wrote:
Why is that Charlie....has anyone ever tried? That is the problem ....noone wants to at least have a go! Mate,in the early 70's they wanted nothing to do with Artificial Insemination ! Hey ,If it doesn't get off the ground,I am not going to jump off the bloody Harbour Bridge....it is a idea of mine that I have had for a long time and I am going to run with it ...if it doesn't come off then it can join the other times I have had a crack at something and it didn't work! I won't die wondering though...that is for sure.Thanks Carole !
Actually 100% for and any support needed just ask, more than happy to help.
Maybe in 30 years it will be where AI is today
Kerri Dalziel Australia (Verified User) Posts 1095 Dogs 4498 / Races 10698 21 Dec 2007 01:09
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I believe it has been mentioned to GA a number of times already, as it is acceptable with show dogs (American Kennel Club). Three good reasons for allowing Multiple Sire litters are:
To help breeders with their breeding program, which will result in fewer breedings.
To reduce the continued breeding from Older and aging brood bitches.
To encourage the registration of offspring born from an accidental breeding, in the home of reducing the number of unregistered/unidentifiable pups euthanised, "given away" as pets, or handed to adoption programs.
I believe some of the things being considered before a decision is made are:
The price of having all pups in a litter DNA profiled would be prohibitive for some.
There are no guarantees that you will get pups from both sires.
Would the studmaster of "Dog B" be responsible for a "miss" if all the pups in the litter were by "Dog A"?
DNA profiling by salival swab has been trialed for some time now; if it is found to be an effective and less expensive option, you may find that Multiple Sire litters will be closer to acceptance.
It is also highly likely that when it comes in, EVERY pup born will need to be DNA'd, not just those from Multiple Sire litters.
Andrew Plaiser Australia (Verified User) Posts 3904 Dogs 17 / Races 36 21 Dec 2007 01:35
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its a good idea but costs will restrict alot of people doing it,two service fees,dna testing,also what kerrie said about ramifications from misses ect.. but 4 the ones who can afford it,sounds good..
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 21 Dec 2007 02:05
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The vets will love it
Michael Barry Australia (Verified User) Posts 7402 Dogs 26 / Races 9 21 Dec 2007 02:17
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just bring on cloning instead ,
much easier for authority 's to administer , and i believe BRETT LEE will be the first ,
mick
Adam Jones Australia (Verified User) Posts 2275 Dogs 0 / Races 1 21 Dec 2007 02:27
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it will never happen Mick, not in our lifetime anyway, you may get yourself Brett Lee but "he' will cost you 5 or 10 millions dollars to get at this point in time, probably more then that actually.
Wayne Garner Australia (Verified User) Posts 6124 Dogs 41 / Races 43 21 Dec 2007 02:30
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Rob,, if it gets of the ground and you need a test brood,, give me a ring,,iv got few around as well,, id love for it work and happen,, maybe it will stop broods from being over breed,, all this about money,,you aint got it,, shouldnt breed any way,, takes a lot of time and money to be a breeder and not train,, some people try and cut cost ect,, but you do your self more harm breeding not healthy pups,, as iv said i breed 1-3 litters a yr,,and boy its hard work. try sitting with broods waitng to drop,, you have to stay all nite welping,,long nites,, any way cheers wayne
Karl Batshon Australia (Verified User) Posts 137 Dogs 2 / Races 1 21 Dec 2007 03:55
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michael barry wrote:
just bring on cloning instead ,
much easier for authority 's to administer , and i believe BRETT LEE will be the first ,
mick
a few friends were talking about this recently and we came up with conclusion that even if cloned lets say brett lee though the make is identical the environmental factors would also need to be replicated. Therefore an indivdual is a product of bother genetics and environment. What's everyones thoughts?
Mind you i wouldnt a replacment part from some vegatative clone (must be vegetative)for the bum knee i have. Anyone watch the the island (not disturb just tempting)
Very interesting Rob, I cant say I've thought of this before (a lot of others seem to have ).
I have a couple of broods,one in particular, I would like to try an Australian cross, then a USA cross, then a Ire. cross.
This would save a huge amount of both time & money.
Would the semen be mixed before insemination or would each sire go into each horn of the uterus ?
cheers
Lyn Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 127 Dogs 14 / Races 1 21 Dec 2007 04:26
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I thought about this years ago Rob.But I never said anything about it,because I thought people would think I was mad.
Great idea and I am behind you.
As kerri said there are a lot of problems that would have to be worked out,but where there is a will,there is a way.
Rob Tyler Australia (Verified User) Posts 5176 Dogs 64 / Races 113 21 Dec 2007 04:35
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Peter, I am pretty certain that they would go in as 2 seperates although I would have to check with John regarding that.Cannot see how the vets will be the winner...sure they have to implant another lot into the bitch but it is the same operation...it is not 2 seperate ones. The other thing to keep in mind is that you DON'T HAVE TO DO IT! It should be a breeders choice if he wants to go down that path....and finally,something that I heard a while ago and I have had it confirmed today....the talk is that they are considering making us DNA EVERY pup in a litter anyway prior to registration. Trust me, this is on the table...not just a rumour! So if the powers that be want us to go through that added cost of DNA then surely, we as breeders SHOULD have the right to use whatever we like! As I stated before...you don't have to agree with my ideas ...but surely,we should be allowed the opportunity. As for cloning...this has nothing whatsoever to do with that! Kerri, I have always stated that I cannot understand why we have to do blood DNA anyway...saliva swabs are more than effective and less cost as well. Rob Tyler Reason Kennels
Malcolm Smart Australia (Verified User) Posts 12802 Dogs 19 / Races 34 21 Dec 2007 04:41
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NO CHANCE, we can't even get split kenneling, so how much chance do you think you have of getting this of the ground.......
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
