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Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 30 Nov 2008 02:41
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Courtesy David Brasch
This is an excerpt from the book "Tesio - Master of Matings" written by famed Australia thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken McLean. We know that by using outbreeding or outcrossing we cannot hope too much for the mating to produce offspring that will have dominance, or hope to fix specific characteristics in the line. Only by reducing the genetic pool by duplicating superior ancestors can certain gene groupings be reinforced hopefully at double strength for dominance. Outstanding performers tracing from female lines not having produced good sires usually are not successful when they go to stud. There are always exceptions though. Outbred performers represent a big risk as breeding stock; inbred or linebred performers with a superior ancestor duplicated represent a lesser risk and sires from female lines that have previously produced good sires, hardly any risk. This is a general statement and there will be examples on occasions to upset this summary."
What are peoples thoughts, are damlines more influential when they are dominated by one or more related sires and dams. Sires from proven female producing lines, are they a risk as a sire. Any comments re Tesio theories.
Ian Rose Australia (Verified User) Posts 941 Dogs 6 / Races 11 30 Nov 2008 07:14
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Dan, having studied the works of tesio for many years,a few things stand out to me. Your damline is everything.? By introducing a sire to your line the best you can hope for is to complement what you already have. Find the best quality line you can,then try to find what made it so successful. Tesio found certain lines when combined produced outstanding results. When these duplications were combined in a mating on both sides of a pedigree,often the results were outstanding. Our big problem today is indescriminant in or line breeding. 6 or 8 duplications of the same dog in the first half dozen generations is of no benefit.Wheras duplicating a known nick through related individuals can be a goldmine. Peoples understanding of student of tesio, Rassmussons work,only touch the edge of what tesio used to such great success. Have a look at the pedigree of prepotent sire MALAWI'S PRINCE.
Mike Clarke Australia (Verified User) Posts 499 Dogs 383 / Races 247 30 Nov 2008 07:25
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Ian rose wrote:
Have a look at the pedigree of prepotent sire MALAWI'S PRINCE.
Hi Ian,
I'm trying to understand. Would you mind spelling it out for me using the MP pedigree???.......
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 30 Nov 2008 08:33
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I know what you are saying Ian. Though i know many dont look past the 4th remove. Myself, i look for those nics and clicks from the past from Elsie Moss to Temora Lee, down to the likes of Modern Assassin and Made to Size. Like Temlee and his many duplications behind many successful sires and broods, it comes at the 6th/7th remove onwards, and dont think it a major problem when selecting the sire for your brood. Personally, i think Malawi's Prince is one of the best bred sires by far. The nicks behind his breeding has tasted success around the world, why wouldnt one want to duplicate such a successful cross. And the lines he has worked in with will continue to be successful when following the same path.
Tomas Mika Germany (Verified User) Posts 1536 Dogs 133 / Races 90 30 Nov 2008 09:05
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Thats a largely optimistic interpretation of MP`s prepotency and obviously pretty far fetched even for Tesio worshippers, on the other hand he doesnt represent todays common practice of producing red pedigrees(on GD, that is)...
Tesio introduced linebreeding in race horses which certainly improved their potential. There will be something like an optimal degree of linebreeding before saturation and duplication of weaknesses starts building up. Linebreeding for its own sake will ultimately lead to undesired results. People doubling up 4 or more lines at the same time within few generations will have no clue where particular traits of their offspring come from(they dont know to which line they are breeding...;-)). You need a regular outcross to keep your lines straight and healthy.
Tesios very valuable theories are led ad absurdum by some breeders who just double up any "big name" they find in their dams pedigree. It has led so far that the conformation, personality and performance of a bitch seem to be regardless for some breeders. Thats not seeing the forrest for all the trees....
MALAWIS PRINCE is much more a beautiful example of a successfull sire with a healthy pedigree...
regards, Tomas
Pat Hennessy Australia (Verified User) Posts 1553 Dogs 6 / Races 6 30 Nov 2008 09:51
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Interesting that Malawi Prince's best progeny ie Tenthill Doll & Token Prince were each bred with a 3 x 3 Waverley Supreme cross.
So duplicating an outcross sire in these 2 cases & in the 3rd remove is certainly food for thought.
Reference the thought that 5th & 6th generations play such an important role can i think be effectively countered by the above & study of Ginger-West Cape etc who were bred with a 2 x 3 Temlee x.
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 30 Nov 2008 10:01
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Gee, i dont know Tomas. You say "You need a regular outcross to keep your lines straight and healthy". I think with the more outcross, you get more chance of not knowing what you are breeding. Shit, with the first outcross your fingers are crossed and to introduce foreign blood on a regular basis, you'd be moving further and further away from your ideal
Tomas Mika Germany (Verified User) Posts 1536 Dogs 133 / Races 90 30 Nov 2008 11:51
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What is your ideal?
Ian Rose Australia (Verified User) Posts 941 Dogs 6 / Races 11 30 Nov 2008 22:18
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Dan. I too believe the outcross to be important for vigor and diversity of pedigree.Without the outcross you will be amplifying the undesirable traits with a greater degree of certainty. When breeding the outcrossed bitch back in to a sire containing the dominant or prepotent nick,we are hoping this duplication will dominate all the variables and resurface within your litter. Sometimes it will and others it may fail,but as TESIO proved when it works superior performers and breeding stock are the result.
Mike. waverly supremes most successful son at stud in aust was 6 times vic sire of the year CHARIOT SUPREME,at the time it was considered bowetzel and tempix bitches were what made him no 1 sire. In fact bowetzels damline was a known nick with outstanding sire shining chariot produced from this cross. You will find the waverly supreme x tempix or bowetzel(princess diro) cross behind many success full pedigree's today. With malawis prince you have these known nicks prominent in his pedigree, It is a very sweet mix of success. Have a look on the database of outstanding individuals out of MP bitches,it is truely amazing but not unexpected.
Tom Flanagan Australia (Verified User) Posts 7250 Dogs 974 / Races 1022 01 Dec 2008 02:14
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Thanks for that Ian. (I wasn't following them during the 80s) Cheers, Tom PS That makes Bright Ebony an interesting candidiate for a Malawi's Prince cross(!). CLICK HERE
David Brasch Australia (Team Member) Posts 844 Dogs 2140 / Races 9672 01 Dec 2008 06:13
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Pat
I would think that in the case of Tenthill Doll and Token Prince you were NOT duplicating an outcross sire. You were reinforcing similar bloodlines (ie Waverly Supreme) that were contained in both sire and dam. The fact this was an imported dog does not mean it was then an outcross.
DB
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 01 Dec 2008 06:28
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My ideal, well currently there is no standard, though the culmination with the three damlines i have is to incorporate the same. Damlines thaT share the same sireline though similar yet distant damlines. The foundation brood see's bitches by Token Prince, Just the Best, Go Wild Teddy and Modern Assassin. One bitch from these sires is a proven producer while others have pups on the ground. This foundation line has produced speed and strength. The second line is another Just the Best bitch and a damline that has produced group winning offspring with plenty of speed. The third is a Brett Lee bitch who's damline has produced feature and group peformers over the longer distance. Mind you, it can be difficult when so many females are required which is why i only have the three here while others are placed elsewhere. With young bitch pups coming through whom may end up here once their racing is done. Of the three here, one was lightly raced while the other two unraced, and totally clean of any drugs. Also the dog i have kept for the Malawi's Prince dominance from the foundation line, will play an important role whilst hoping another will come about over the next 3 or so years. With two Irish frozens on hand Hopefully to compliment the Waverley Supreme with Laurdella Fun and the diversity of blood through these damlines, may not see outcross blood introduced for some time. There are bitch pups by Addis Boy, Where's Pedro and Bombastic Shiraz coming through with others planned also, so looking on with anticipation while staying positive. Along with Malawi's Prince influence, and the sire lines of Temlee, among the females duplicated is Sabby's Image (Temlee sireline) and her daughter Our Image by Riviera Tiger, a son of Temlee. While more of the modern nicks are noticable, that outcross may provide that little extra to work with over the coming years, plus the second outcross will be introduced also, but not introduced to the other. There are plenty of females to play with and future breeding options and looking toward the Brett Lee bitch for that first outcross. Not just because Brett Lee produced to Larkhill Jo daughters, but what i said earlier in Laurdella Fun. Though i have said in the past, its the blood that works with the outcross and not the pedigree. I agree with Tesio as the outcross can produce something mighty fine, yet whether they can reproduce is another story. Ive said enough.
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 01 Dec 2008 10:24
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Fair enough Dan.................Stevo
Pat Hennessy Australia (Verified User) Posts 1553 Dogs 6 / Races 6 01 Dec 2008 11:03
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David Brasch wrote:
Pat
I would think that in the case of Tenthill Doll and Token Prince you were NOT duplicating an outcross sire. You were reinforcing similar bloodlines (ie Waverly Supreme) that were contained in both sire and dam. The fact this was an imported dog does not mean it was then an outcross.
DB David, call him what you like an Irish import if you wish, the main point i was trying to emphasise was the 3rd line double x as opposed to the argument that 5th-6th and beyond ancestors are of great importance. I'm a believer that line breeding is more relavent in the first 4 generations, have heard all the debates and am yet to be convinced otherwise. In a lifetime devoted to the task of trying to unravel some of the mysteries i'm now convinced more than ever that it is useless to consider pedigrees conceived before DNA, because we will never know for sure the correct parentage. Shining Chariot was mentioned above & he is just one sire i know of with a very questionable pedigree.
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 01 Dec 2008 11:39
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What is fair enough.........Stevo
I have a plan, and sure enough it wont work posting it here.
Tomas Mika Germany (Verified User) Posts 1536 Dogs 133 / Races 90 01 Dec 2008 11:41
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Reading all your comments the impression is that re.a potential dam and the right mating everything depends on the pedigree.
Would you consider her own pace, conformation and personality and to what extent?
Pat Hennessy Australia (Verified User) Posts 1553 Dogs 6 / Races 6 01 Dec 2008 22:03
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Tomas Mika wrote:
Reading all your comments the impression is that re.a potential dam and the right mating everything depends on the pedigree.
Would you consider her own pace, conformation and personality and to what extent?
Tomas,As far as i'm concerned the answer is YES & pedigree is of equal importance, Balance is probably the right word.
David Brasch Australia (Team Member) Posts 844 Dogs 2140 / Races 9672 02 Dec 2008 05:21
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Pat
The position of Waverly Supreme in the pedigree of Token Prince is an extremely interesting topic. When I went to see thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken McLean in June, I showed him the pedigree of Token Prince (among many others) and informed him he was the leading sire in Australia. He saw the double-up of Waverly Supreme in the position it was in and said "for that dog to be a great success at stud the bitches he mates MUST carry the sires that appear in the middle of his pedigree i.e. Bowetzel, but more importantly Brother Fox". Fortunately for Token Prince there are any number of broodbitches that carry Brother Fox or his half brother Acacia Park in their damlines. If you look on Greyhound Data at the top progeny sired by Token Prince EVERY ONE (except Mandagery Man) carries Brother Fox or Acacia Park in their damline. Mandagery Man carries TWO crosses of Bowetzel's sire Second Stage in his dam. Ken McLean told me while I was there that the damsire of a stud dog (thoroughbred stallion) is extremely important. I was led to believe that if a potential stud dog has a "weak" damsire then this can affect his chances at stud. Maybe this is the real reason why my theory that stud dogs with an import as the sire of his dam has a huge task trying to become a great success at stud. (This theory still holds true.) With the pedigree of Token Prince, and the position of Waverly Supreme where he is in the pedigree, I went looking for other sires bred the same way.
I came across I'm Slippy. He carries Newdown Heather top and bottom 3x4. So I looked at his best progeny and the number that carried OWN PRIDE and MONALEE CHAMPION in their damline was again amazing. Obviously Greyhound Data's records for the I'm Slippy period are not that great, but it was enough to convince me I had stumbled onto something. I would then think that if a potential broodbitch is bred in this pattern, she might then have to pick up on the blood of her own damsire in the pedigree of the sires she is mated to.
Also, while I was talking with Ken, I asked why it is so important to sex balance within a pedigree. He said it was all to do with genetics. The only way the energy/speed genes can be passed on is through the mitrochondrial DNA which can only be passed on by the female. Ken explained that if a pedigree is not balanced then it is extremely difficult (but not impossible) for the energy/speed genes to be passed on. Look at the pedigree of NEW TEARS for instance, to make it simple. CLICK HERE He is sex balanced to Temlee (through the male Tangaloa in his sireline, and the female Starfire Lady in his damline). Now have a look at the pedigree of Hay Dinney. CLICK HERE His pedigree carries a double-up of Newdown Heather but through two sons, Supreme Fun and Newmore King.
New Tears was a champion sprinter and a champion sire.
Hey Dinney was a relative flop at stud ... BUT if you look closely at his pedigree you will see that he carries Temlee as his damsire. Now look at his best progeny. CLICK HERE The top 12 ALL carry Temlee in their damline, some even sex balance Newdown Heather, and some even bring in a sex balance to Newmore King.
I have since read somewhere on a thoroughbred site, that if a pedigree is not sex balanced, then if a female is the offspring, this can balance it.
I know this can become quite confusing, but if you look at how many great dogs are sex balanced, it really is quite amazing. Brett Lee, Highly Blessed, Flying Amy, National Lass, I'm Slippy, Worth Doing, Token Prince etc etc etc.
Obviously not all champions are bred with a sex balance, but quite often they are, but have another strong influence closer in their pedigree. I believe the pedigree of Bombastic Shiraz to be an amazing one. CLICK HERE He is in-bred 3x3 to the litter brothers Buka Sunset and Malawi, but these two comes through a female (Buka Sunset's daughter Dark Horizon), and a male (Malawi's son Malawi's Prince) ... sex balancing but in a different form. But the greater majority of his best progeny do not pick up on this Buka Sunset/Malawi nick. They pick up on other lines in his pedigree (mostly Shining Chariot, Light Of Fire and some with Waverly Supreme the sire of Buka Sunset and Malawi), but importantly bringing back parts of his own pedigree (i.e. in-breeding).
All food for thought.
Pat Hennessy Australia (Verified User) Posts 1553 Dogs 6 / Races 6 02 Dec 2008 05:56
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David, This is what i would do if i owned Bettys Angel:
CLICK HERE A 2 x 3 of the best dog & best sire of modern times.
Would it meet your balance criteria ??
I would still do it with the right Brett Lee bitch, does anyone want to try it ??
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 02 Dec 2008 05:59
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Great stuff Braschy, Im Slippy, by Laurdella Fun, litter bro to Waverley Supreme. The first outcross i plan involves a sire out of a dam carrying a 3 x 4 Laurdella Fun and sex balanced to Flying Merry through the centre on the 4th remove. Flying Merry also by Newdown Heather.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
