How's this for taking it forward another generation CLICK HERE (Note Tally at the bottom of the pedigree as well). Sex balance through brother and sister Lin Dell and Silver Dell. Damline of Osti Lee.

Alternatively given Chief Havoc is doubled up for Sterling you could inbreed to his damsire Robert Kent CLICK HERE damline of Tivoli Chief, Amerigo Lady, Winter Parade and Black Tuesday.
Cheers,
Tom

I agree that the Primo Uno mating looks good, although many of his best progeny sex balance Walkabout Sid.
But I like this even better, to Train A Journey because of the Shining Chariot/Centrefire nick, and the balance to New Tears.
CLICK HERE
I like a mating to Where's Pedro.
Miagi is bred on the Hallucinate-Token Prince bitch cross, but I'm a fan of Where's Pedro ahead of his brother.
CLICK HERE
Surf Lorian would suit her perfectly as well.
CLICK HERE He has worked exceptionally well with the Mad Midge damline (Slater and Awesome Assassin are from this line).
You get the JTB/Token Prince nick, and you also get a 3x4 balance to Credibility. (Surf Lorian's son Technoman is 3x3 to Credibility but through two males, even though there is another extremely powerful influence in that pedigree).
And the position of West Cape and Amerigo Man is this mating is fantastic.
And of course you get a sex balance to New Tears.

Hi Guys & Gals,

This is a string that was transferred from the Ausie site in the hope that there may be some more knowledgeable folks on the USA site to help shed some light on this subject!

In a nutshell, it was reported by DR. Jim Gannon that research in the USA had proven beyond any doubt that both the Mitochondria and Golgi Apparatus of the cells are only inherited from the Dam, and that therefore the Sire has no influence at all on this essential structure of the cells of its offspring.

My own contention is that if this is really true, I have great difficulty understanding how it is then possible for a primarily staying damline to produce fast short course sprinters.

My main argument being, that as the Mitochondria are primarily involved in producing the ATP needed for muscle contraction, and the Mitochondria contains its own DNA that govern the production of the enzymes needed for the initial processing of available energy.

It is my understanding that the structure of these enzymes, regulated by the Mitochondria, define what type of energy is best used by the muscle tissue. Research, also from the USA, has defined that different types of muscle tissue, (fast or slow twitch fibres) best use different types of energy.

We need help sorting this out!!!!!

Tom

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Find Member's Posts Sep 4 2004, 11:55 PM Post #4

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It is completely true that the dam is only contributor of mitochondria and most probably all organelles. Simply because it is impossible for the sperm to contribute as the tail falls of at fertilization. The tail contains these organelles. One thing that must be remembered is that although they are not subject to meiosis mutations can occur. This is also the same with the Y chromosome.

[quote]So the conclusion I came to is that when mated to the right sire and if subjected to the right training a staying bitch can produce a sprinter, but the sprinter should be able to handle distances further than the sire as the mitochondria can reproduce ATP using Oxygen efficiently.

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One other area that tips the balance slightly to the female is the X chromosome itself which is far larger and carries more information than the Y chromosome whose only purpose appears to be the determination of sex. Indeed, the Y is so devoid of genetic information that the code for formation of the testes in male offspring resides on the X chromosome.

With 38 pairs of autosomes, the non-sex linked chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes, one might say that 1/39th isn't a particularly great advantage, but if there is important information that resides on the X that isn't on any of the autosomes then the possible advantage for those particular traits becomes magnified. Moreover, the X chromosome is far larger than any single autosome and carries more information and therefore contributes significantly more than just 1/39th of the total genetic payload.

BTW, for you ladies who might be prone to gloating that you have two Xs to our one, be advised that the growing embryo undergoes a process called X-negation where with each new cell division traits from one X are negated by the other. Females don't have more genetic information by virtue of having two Xs, just a series of choices among X-traits from both parents. In males those X-traits are entirely from the mother.

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Find Member's Posts Sep 5 2004, 04:57 AM Post #6

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I was following this thread on the other forum---and the problem that I'm having with it, is that here in the US, when we have a staying female produce a sprinting offspring by a sprinting sire-----we are often speaking of but a 100 yard distance differential, betweeen what we view as a sprinter and a stayer (503m is a "sprint" here, 603m is a "route")-----and we judge the performance of the offsprings, and whether they are to be called sprinters or stayers, on courses that are of a completely different configuration.

Then I look at a photo of a dog like Bright Ebony-----and we simply don't produce many dogs who look like him----if we do, I've not noticed them.

So I'm led to believe that on the world's stage, and if we identify them as being so by muscle fiber type, perhaps we are not producing many "sprinters" at all, here in the US.

Then there is the matter of greyhounds/sires like Ks Flak, by our standards, an awesome stayer who could also sprint, but whose primary contribution as a sire, was pure, explosive pace aptitude.

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Find Member's Posts Sep 5 2004, 05:19 AM Post #7

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I am particularly interested in the discussion of fast- and slow-twitch muscle fibers Tom initiated above.

I remember an article in Runners World magazine many years ago right about the time a few sports announcers got their butts in a crack over what were perceived to be racially insensitive remarks---specifically that black athletes had an advantage in certain sports that required sprinting and leaping ability. They were ridiculed and condemned, but the Runners World article went completely unnoticed. It stated that athletes of West African descent had the highest ratio of fast-twitch to slow-twitch fibers while East Africans, particularly Kenyans, had the highest ratio of slow to fast twitch fibers. While most humans have these in a ratio of approximately 1:1, the best sprinters and marathoners have them in a ratio of up to 4:1.

Of course, the history of track and field events shows that you are just as unlikely to see a Kenyan in the final of the 100m sprint as you are a Nigerian on the podium in the Marathon. Through slavery, west Africans were brought to the western hemisphere which explains the sprinting prowess of black athletes from the U.S., Jamaica and Cuba.

Back to greyhounds, no amount of training can totally overcome a genetic disposition to sprint or stay, but obviously improvements can be made in the performance of a sprinter to stay by endurance training. One way is through walking which builds cardiovascular and muscle strength. I've read of trainers who believe that "you can't train a greyhound to run by walking," but that's not what you're doing. Distance training increases the number of capillaries which improves blood flow and improves overall aerobic efficiency.

My guess is that less improvement can be made to make stayers sprint which to me suggests that as a general rule marathoners should make riskier candidates for breeding.

Looking over the pedigrees of hundreds of dogs the conclusion I've come to is that breeding brilliant early speed to great stamina is a very hit or miss proposition. The occasional freakishly superb dog is produced, but there is often very little depth to the litter with a wide range of distance aptitudes.

More consistent results appear to come from breeding animals of similar muscle types or perhaps more accurately, similar ratios of fast to slow twitch fibers. If a bitch is a bit short at 5/16ths a sire who throws late 5/16ths speed seems to make a lot of sense for her rather than a distance dog. I think it's safer to nudge an aptitude in one direction or another than to try to jerk it all the way across the spectrum.

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 02:43 AM Post #8

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Mitochondria

Function
Mitochondria are the site of most of the energy production in eukaryotic cells.
They use complex molecules and oxygen to produce a high energy molecule know as ATP. To do this mitochondria carry on a process called aerobic respiration. Because of its role in energy production the mitochondria has been called the "powerhouse of the cell". Mitochondria are very abundant in cells that require lots of energy. The inner membrane with the cristea contains enzymes which carry on reactions necessary for the last step in aerobic respiration. The inner compartment also contains enzymes which are necessary for earlier steps in aerobic respiration.

Details
Mitochondria are very unique in several regards. They have their own DNA and ribosomes. The DNA in the cell nucleus does not code for the construction of mitochondria. The DNA of mitochondria is similar to bacterial DNA. Both mitochondria and chloroplasts have these characteristics of prokaryotes (bacteria) this and other evidence has led biologists to formulated the endosymbiotic hypothesis. The endosymbiotic hypothesis states that mitochondria and chloroplasts evolved from free-living bacteria which took up residence inside other cells. You can read more about this hypothesis in newer biology books or newer encyclopedias.

All the mitochondria in your body came from your mother. Mitochondria are not part of the genetic code in the nucleus of your cells, fathers only give genes to their children. Mothers give genes and cytoplasm to their children in their egg cells, since mitochondria are in the cytoplasm and reproduce themselves they only are inherited from mothers. Geneticists have used this curious feature of mitochondria to study maternal family lines and rates of evolution.

It is quite obvious from the above biology extract, that the article by Dr. Jim Gannon is quite correct in pointing out that much of the cell structure, including the way the cell obtains power for functioning, is inherited from the Dam, and that the Sire has no say in this at all.

This still has me totally confused as how it is then possible for some Sires to consistently leave their mark on the muscle function of their offspring.

I know from personal experience, that specific Sires have consistently produce speed dogs from a wide range of Dams, who themselves raced best over a variety of distances. At the same time I have noted specific Sires who’s offspring were more inclined to breakdown in the muscle structure compared to the offspring from other Sires.

Again, this has to be an inherited trait!

Tom

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 03:28 AM Post #9

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[quote]

Thread continues:

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I think everyone is getting carried away with aerobic respiration. I think everyone would agree that the most important part of any race is the first half, as the sky statistic shows 70% of the first two greyhounds leading first turn go onto win the race. The fact is that aerobic respiration is not the dominant energy supply until you reach approximately the 15 second mark in the race.

This is where the X-factor comes into play.
The basic way mitochondria work is inside the mitochondria is a respiratory chain this chain accepts pairs of hydrogen atoms. These hydrogen atoms pass along the respiratory chain. When the hydrogen atoms pass along the chain the produce energy about 50% is given off as heat and the other half is used to phosphorylate ADP molecules back into ATP. At the end of the chain they are meet with an atom of oxygen (if present) this produces H20 (water). If there is no oxygen then this process can not occur as the respiratory chain becomes full of hydrogen atoms with no were to go.

If oxygen is not present then Anaerobic Glycolysis occurs. Instead of the H being meat by O there are met with Pyruvic acid. When Pyruvic acid meets with H it produces Lactic Acid.

The reason the X-facotor is important as a more efficent hearts can obviously pump more oxygen to the mitochondria and there for less Pyruvic acid is needed and less Lactic acid is produced. As everyone who has excised before knows that you perform better with no lactic acid in your muscles then when they are full of it.

This is only a simple explanation.

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 04:12 AM Post #12

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Because Larkhill Jo is probably a prepotent sire.

I'm finding it hard to conceive of how the relative percentage of fast tick and slow tick muscles is a microcsm for the entire biomechanical-stride efficiency/spectrum of a greyhound .....when, seemingly, there are other things to be considered, regarding skeletal structure/weight/size, conformation/angulation, and cardio-pulmonary efficiency...along with mitochondrial DNA and Golgi apparatus....and the X factor.

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Tom, I cant say my conclusion is correct as there is no proof, but my conclusion that i came to which i wrote about above is that the explosive early speed is a characteristic of the muscle(how much ATP it can hold). As the dam and sire contribute to the muscle, If the sire carries and passes on a dominate trait for the muscle that contains information for how much ATP it can hold then sire can continually dictate early speed factor in the majority of its offspring.

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 04:33 AM Post #14

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Thanks Six,
It is confusing to say the least but if it was easy we would all have champions!I do believe that the dam passes on more of her traits than the sire but every now and then a sire like LJ or his father SJ comes along and seem to contribute as much if not more of his traits to his offspring than the dam and the theories get more confusing.
Regards
Tom

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 04:59 AM Post #15

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[quote]That's just it---they are all pieces of a much bigger puzzle, including what is between a greyhound's ears, arguably as important to greatness as what occurs from the neck down.

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 01:38 PM Post #16

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Thanks Six,

That actually explains a lot!!

The muscle cell structure inherited from the Dam would certainly explain why some greyhounds need a lot more gentle exercise to get ready and fit for racing. While others from a different Dam can be worked as hard as you like, never seeming to suffer from stress problems, and yet both are by the same Sire.

Tom

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Since the Golgi tendon organs are essential in keeping a hound on the track and all the muscle fiber a hound will ever have is determined at birth, this thread has made it very clear how much the bitch line will effect the outcome of any litter. Thus, if a bitch of excellent breeding that went to grade A very quickly is injuried early in her career and the injury was sustained from (a) muscular or tendon problem(s), it would be best not to breed her for fear of genetic reprocussions. Is this a deduction that can be drawn from this thread????

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Find Member's Posts Sep 6 2004, 06:21 PM Post #18

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[quote]I don't think so. If some of her siblings had the same injury or her sire and dam were retired with the exact same injury I'd start to become concerned. There are a 1,000 more likely things that would explain a muscle injury before I'd start thinking it was congenital unless it was recurring over and over in those blood lines.

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The way that I understand it now, is that the support mechanisms for the body’s cells are inherited from the Dam. While the size, shape and integrity of the muscle fibres are influenced “equally” by both the Sire and Dam.

As it is only the support mechanism for the cells that is solely inherited from the Dam, and the support mechanism is primarily involved with the supply of energy to the cells, it therefore mainly affects the ability of the muscle cells to handle hard work.

This would then not necessarily affect either the soundness or speed of the progeny. That being influenced again “equally” by the DNA inherited from both Dam and Sire.

Tom

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Find Member's Posts Sep 7 2004, 09:28 PM Post #20

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Tom....To quote MROPER,

That's just it---they are all pieces of a much bigger puzzle, including what is between a greyhound's ears, arguably as important to greatness as what occurs from the neck down.

I consider whats between the ears, as all important, and from my own
observation, the sire, makes the biggest contribution, as far as brain,
temprement is concerned.

I found this interesting about 5 years ago & hope Jim does not mind
me "pinching it"
Cheers.

There was thoroughbred research done in England a couple of years back and I ran a short summary of that research in a Qld Greyhound Journal at the time that basically said all of the above.
In a nutshell it said all speed/energy (call it what you like) comes from the female.

I'm suggesting that maybe a successful sire then passes on his best traits, influences his progeny, because of the dominance of females within his own pedigree.
Maybe the success of an outcross is ONLY because of the domination of a great damline in the bitch.

We put so much importance onto the sire.
How often do you go to a trial track and everyone asks: "What's that pup by?"
Never do they ask: "What is that pup's damline?"
I suppose it's easier to group dogs into a "He's by Brett Lee" or "He's by Surf Lorian" or in your case "He's by Flying Scott".

I remember posting that initial article onto this site
It might be worth bringing it out for a rust off.

DB

Leaving the RF aside for now, the stand out point here for me was the total difference in the pedigrees of the Irish Derby dogs compared to the Australian dogs. The Irish pedigrees make a mockery of Ken McLeans suggestion that .. We know that by using outbreeding or outcrossing we cannot hope too much for the mating to produce offspring that will have dominance, or hope to fix specific characteristics in the line

That comment may have some relevance to greyhound pedigrees in Australia today but does not have a permanence for all greyhound breeding, at all times, in all countries. It is definitely not relevant in Ireland today or Australia in the 70s and 80s and in my opinion it should be prefaced with that point or thrown out as more racehorse BS that is totally irrelevant to successful greyhound breeding

Article excerpt:
Last year I did a bit of research where I looked at the pedigrees of all of the greyhounds in the third round of the Irish Derby and checked to see if they had a RF and also if their dams had a RF.
Those last 48 dogs were the absolute cream of Irelands greyhounds and include 2006 Irish Derby Champ Razldazl Billy, Waterford Masters and Dundalk International Champion Si Senor, the winner of the Ladbrokes Open, Easter Cup and National record holder Ardkill Jamie and Irelands best bitch Alexandrova.
Of the 48 dogs in this round only six had a RF (12.5 per cent) and only 18 (37.5 per cent) of their dams had an RF which is in vast contrast to what we are experiencing here in Australia.
Not only via the difference in the RF percentages but also in the totally different look of their pedigrees. In some cases these Irish greyhounds hardly have a common ancestor in their first five generations.
The results gave credibility to the thought that the RF is strongly aligned to inbreeding itself, as in Australia greyhounds are heavily inbred with a high RF and currently in Ireland they have very out-crossed greyhounds with only a small incidence of RF.

have any of you breeding buffs out there ever noticed that some lines of breeding continually produce outstanding females who continue to produce there like gender,but very few males highly successful at stud.likewise we find sire lines that produce stud dogs,but no outstanding females.for example dennis reids
travelling girl line has been producing outstanding females for over 20yrs,with 1 stud dog of note new fox.then we have the im blessed
line of dams like wee sal sobbing sal starlight jessie,just one stud dog of note cry havoc,who with over 230 litters on the ground hasnt exactly set the world on fire.head honcho,malawi prince & credibility are essentially sire lines.before just the best flying amys pedigree was pure & simply an outstanding damline,no stud dogs of note.will be most interested to hear your opinion on this subject.cheers.
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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 07:04 PM Post #2

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have any of you breeding buffs out there ever noticed that some lines of breeding continually produce outstanding females who continue to produce there like gender,but very few males highly successful at stud.likewise we find sire lines that produce stud dogs,but no outstanding females.for example dennis reids
travelling girl line has been producing outstanding females for over 20yrs,with 1 stud dog of note new fox.then we have the im blessed
line of dams like wee sal sobbing sal starlight jessie,just one stud dog of note cry havoc,who with over 230 litters on the ground hasnt exactly set the world on fire.head honcho,malawi prince & credibility are essentially sire lines.before just the best flying amys pedigree was pure & simply an outstanding damline,no stud dogs of note.will be most interested to hear your opinion on this subject.cheers.
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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 09:34 PM Post #3

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Bobsyar,

The Travelling Girl Dam line has thrown her share of handy race dogs aside from New Fox. including the likes of Reifenhauser, Solid Ebony, Travelling Ghost, Fond Regards, Halla's Rocket, Patient General, Questions etc. Why then when the dam line continue's to produce quality race dogs/bitches did the above dogs not get the opportunities some others do at stud???? are we as consumers off the mark or is there another reason....

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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 09:43 PM Post #4

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canny
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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 09:53 PM Post #5

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canny fly,that is the $64,000 question,one of my reasons for generating this post,was to find out just that.another couple of his dogs won tweed heads galaxies in the past 10yrs,they stand in the wilds of northern victoria & n.s.w.cheers.
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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 10:11 PM Post #6

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I agree BOBYSAR...I have remarked on the DENIS REID line myself as being "female" dominant...some particular lines do in fact tend to be this way...the CREDIBILITY sire line is most noteable of the males because it contains 5 or 6 absolute standouts, but I think you will find that his bitches have produced too, they are just not as noticeable...the BROTHER FOX - PROMISES FREE litter would be considered "male" dominant, strangely, the only male to really shine through is WALKABOUT SID, via the "one" son HEAD HONCHO...otherwise the sireline might be in danger of "extinction".............................................RAMONDAVICH

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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 10:33 PM Post #7

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Ramondavich,

Is the Travelling Girl line "female' dominant or is it just the how some people perceive it. As I have shown above the line has produced plenty of top quality race dogs, does the line throw better race dogs or bitches, are the reasons for the dogs not going on to be top class stud dogs because they dont/didn't get the opportunities that their sisters have got.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 10:56 PM Post #8

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Given even a reasonable supply of bitches a "potent" dog will shine through...ACACIA ABLAZE and CREDIBILITY himself are proof positive of that...YO YO'S BOY and NOBODY'S FOOL both unheralded and relatively neglected as STUDS have now produced top notchers, and they are currently the "flavour of the month"...YO YO for instance served less than 30 bitches in his 1st 3 years...so you see, if the DOG really has it, it will show up, it just takes "longer" and the sire is "wasted"...I believe that DENIS REIDS line have been unsucessful as sires, and that includes NEW FOX, given the opportunities that he received...............................................RAMONDAVICH

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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 11:09 PM Post #9

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Hey Ray,
Check out Nobody Knew's Dam. She had 18 starts with no wins, and is not that flashy bred. A good sign for Nobody's Fool.

'Buzz'

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Find Member's Posts Jun 12 2003, 11:37 PM Post #10

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So what price a dog like PRIMO UNO being a top sire? Family members Black Shiraz, Tangaloa, Tangairn, Gold Grotto weren't they all sires of some note in their time at stud?

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 12:35 AM Post #11

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Primo Uno's drawn the red in race 10 at Ballarat on Wednesday and should win by about half the length of the straight.

He's a magnificent specimen of a greyhound and should definately produce. Black Shiraz has done exceptionally well at stud considering he's missed half the bitches he's served and is currently sitting 4th on the Vic Metro sires list for the first half of this year. With Moral Standards in his damline gives breeders that outcross when putting their colonial breed bitches to him.

I'm trying to talk Mario into taking him to Horsham to let him let rip on those big straights. If the track is fast I think he'll give that record a big shake. He broke Brett Lee's and Exceptionals handslip records at Warragul recently and it looks like he's come back better than ever after his initial stint at stud!

[ edited by Westy on JUN, 13, 2003 at 04:45 AM.]

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 12:48 AM Post #12

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Its funny but i've noticed that when a damline starts producing sires, i.e. reaches a peak, its seems to be downhill for the next generation.

What does everyone else think, jeff

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 01:11 AM Post #13

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I think the yanks would disagree,flying amy from a female dominant line.Tell you why was a pretty handy sire over there.Dogs like takiri second stage, mister moss and TEMLEE from this damline were also quite usefull sires over here.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 02:48 AM Post #14

Schooling

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Bruce Fletcher's LAUREN'S DESIRE is an example of a broodie that has thrown outstanding sires-ULTIMATE WISH and ULTRA DESIRE as well as broodbitches the calibre of...

* THAI MAGIC (x Grove Whisper) dam of Thai Flame, Griswold, Magic Grove, Thai Charm, etc.
* MOST WELCOME (x Grove Whisper) dam of Most Awesome
* LAUREN MAREE (x Grove Whisper) dam of Crazy Habit who has a good litter to Royal Assassin including-Dancing Habit.
* TOTTIE TAYLOR (x New Tears) dam of Harley Taylor

BAT.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 03:08 AM Post #15

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brett lee,will be the interesting sire to watch over the next 18months or so,gun law osti
was battling to get bitches for quite awile before paul wheeler & co.decided to send his outcross bitches to him.as we all know he then took off & was in the twilight of his career when he got full books.i dont think he was popular early because people were looking at his damline,the famous osti line was & is famous for the brilliant female producers ted doss has bred over the years & producing few stud dogs of note.cheers
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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 04:46 AM Post #16

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Regarding Dennis Reid's line not producing a top sire thus far, I think it is only a matter of time before this trend changes.

I know I will get howled down for this, but I believe Questions will be his most successful sire yet. He is definately the forgotten Credibility sire, and was better performed than some other Credibility sires, who have had great success at stud.

Burglar.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 06:20 AM Post #17

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New Fox produced Topgun winner Mint Magic .. while his litter brother Reifenhauser produced another Topgun winner in Chicago Blue ... another dog from Dennis' damline that produced a few smart ones down here was Burst Asunder .. from fairly limited opportunities

Geoff

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 01:13 PM Post #18

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GEOFF...that still doesn't make them a good sire...they have left nothing that will continue the "male" line...QUESTIONS had little or no early pace, so he will not get many opportunities...I know that he has thrown a couple of pacy pups, so he has a chance of becoming another late "discovery"...I believe that the best thing he has going for him is that he is by CREDIBILITY, he will need to produce a couple of high quality pups from different dams before I would use him though...............................................RAMONDAVICH

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 03:39 PM Post #19

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Westy...I hope your powers can pursuade connections to the big lights of the city and Group racing so we can all see what we expect to see.........a class animal.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 05:50 PM Post #20

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gye4,all sires given a reasonable number of
bitches will produce winners.the post is about sire lines & dam lines & dennis reids is widely
accepted as a dam line.not to say they wont produce a top sire in the future.i think your line of thought may be clouded,seeing you stand
one of reids dogs & i wish you good luck.cheers.
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Have to disagree with 'Buzz Lightyear' re 'Nobody Knews' damline.
Granddam is 'Magic Model',a good racer in her own right,sister to a
'handy' greyhound called 'Dashing Eagle' and a half sister to another
handy one in Tivoli Man.
Nobody knew and Country Willee are no fluke.

Buzz Lightyear

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 07:44 PM Post #22

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Ted,
Look ot her form, 18 starts 0 wins. Who would have bred from her other than the owners? Although her dam was well bred, are'nt most of the bitches these days from a brilliant damline which include anything from Stud Dogs, to track record breakers, or Group Winners?
Once again this blows away the theory that only Top Sires and city winning dams are the only one's to produce. What were Nobody Knew & Country Willie worth as pups? not much I bet.
End result..
Nobody's Fool x Tivoli Kelly = a match made in heaven, but not on paper.

'Buzz'

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 07:49 PM Post #23

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Buzz...I'd disagree on paper it's a rip snorter. But maybe in the Recorder/Tabform it's a fizzer?

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Find Member's Posts Jun 13 2003, 09:20 PM Post #24

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Sorry HP, I did mean paper as in Recorder & Tabform.

"Buzz'

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Find Member's Posts Jun 14 2003, 04:13 AM Post #25

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Obscured by Clouds

Bobsyar .. l don't know how you know what my thinking is ... l didn't state it .. just gave a few simple facts on a couple of sires, from what l think is the equal best damline in Australia over the last 20 years

Granted brilliant damlines like Dennis' are reknown predominantly for their success as damlines ... but l don't believe that they should be catergorized as being 'only that'

lf you look at Niki Savva's Westmead line in the UK it was also 'tagged' as only a damline ... but after a few ordinary and moderate sires, Phantom Flash was #1 UK sire in 1996 ... so l think it is important not to catergorize these sensational damlines .. 'as being unable to produce a sire of standing' ... a point which l think you actually agree with me .. .before just the best flying amys pedigree was pure & simply an outstanding damline

To me it is a bit like the 'repeat mating' theory ... we get a little bit of knowledge and turn into fact ... with very little, if any, scientific basis to support it

Regarding Halla's Rocket ... the sire of Dennis' that you would be referring to ... l actually asked Dennis for this dog ... because firstly l had a huge opinion of him on the track and secondly l don't subscribe to the 'damline only' theory

regards

Geoff

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Find Member's Posts Jun 14 2003, 04:40 AM Post #26

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geoff,as i said up till now predominintly a damline,but that can change,there are no certainties in life, except two,but thats another story.after 20yrs i wouldnt expect a radical change. i would be most interested in your theory on why reifenhauser & chicago blue have been rejected by the victorians as stud dogs,seing they are so well bred & performed,base your answer on scientific evidence, if you dont mind. cheers.
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Find Member's Posts Jun 14 2003, 04:58 AM Post #27

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geoff one more thing seing you made mention of niki savvas westmead line being a female line i bet there are a lot of australian breeders who wish they had known that before they took there broods to balligari,without doubt the biggest flop import in the last 30yrs,forget about sire line or dam line, he was a peking duck line & china is where a lot of his progeny
ended up.cheers.
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Find Member's Posts Jun 17 2003, 02:09 AM Post #28

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Questions

I noticed a Questions dog called "Road Closed"(x Gotta Return) won at Albion Park 9/06/03. This of course is Dennis Reid's own line, although his son Matthew is down as the breeder.

Road Closed won by some 9 lengths, running a BON 30.35. It is an interesting pedigree with a 3x4 cross of Travelling Girl, among others.
I realise that Gotta Return (dam of Halla's Rocket, Alana & Annie's Commando) is a quality broodbitch, but a win is a win, and it is hard to knock a performance like that in town. I would consider him (Questions) "proven" now.
Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Burglar.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 17 2003, 02:34 AM Post #29

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Wait and see...CREDIBILITY? so who knows............................................RAMONDAVICH

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Find Member's Posts Jun 17 2003, 02:49 AM Post #30

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I remeber Questions as just getting the 700? Think he failed everywhere other than Albion? Remember he tried at Wenty and didn't flatter. Still I always rely on my memory for these things and sometimes it's good and sometimes its............so on present train of thoughts was Questions really anything but a moderate beginning sprinter who showed his class by pinching the was it Gold Cup?

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Find Member's Posts Jun 17 2003, 04:44 AM Post #31

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Hey Bobsyar...re:import flops recently...apart from Balligari what about Moral Standards,Galilee,No Doubt Aboutit and that Sydney supersire At The Junction! The list is ENDLESS! Let me go back further...SUPER APPROVAL,CHEERS FOR AKII,RIKASSO MICK,SILVER BALL,CHAME IRELAND,THE AMERICAN,ALBANY,TAIN RUA,WESTMEAD PRIDE,etc.Can't think straight at the moment ..there are a stack more! You guys can keep those imports...maybe now with frozen we can at least get something like the better imports but boy haven't we be sent some rubbish in the past!

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Find Member's Posts Jun 17 2003, 05:31 AM Post #32

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doggirl,there was a beauty in the 1950 to 55 era called pinboughs pride.his progeny could only run 300yds.talk about being conned.
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Find Member's Posts Jun 18 2003, 04:16 AM Post #33

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Hey Bob,do you rememberWeston Pete,Rita's Express and what about Tain Rua! I will keep putting the thinking cap on!There are just so many!

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Find Member's Posts Jun 18 2003, 05:28 AM Post #34

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Why is it so many Australian breeders rubbish imports. Look out our colonial bred dogs. They are by far the most inbred dogs in the world that break down and quite often have very restricted racing careers. I spoke to a top stud-master last week who feels for a dog to make it as a leading sire needs to have at least 100 bitches in his first season. How many imports have had close to that?

I do agree that we have received a lot of rubbish over the years but what international stud-master would send a their leading stud dog to Australia to receive 14 bitches a month and deal with a currency half theirs. Our exported stud dogs go overseas because we know they'll never get full books here. The only way to get the best abroad is frozen semen as Doggirl stated previously. By the way, look at the rubbish on the Australian stud scene. It's not just the ordinary imports that contaminate our breeding industry.

Using an import quite often results in losing a generation of race dogs which most people can't afford to do as they only breed a couple of litters per year, but if you can hang onto the bitches and put them to our colonial bred sires that's where it pays off. That's exactly what Paul Wheeler has been doing of recent time and it's been paying off quite nicely for him. Two of our leading brood bitches of 2002: Mystery Bird(Farloe Melody*), Jindara Bale(Grove Whisper*). As for Balligari he through nothing much except super broodies(Stargari and Tentora ect) Moral Standards bitches are starting to produce now (Prima Portrait and Proven Gain).Pawnote... Primo Uno saluted tonight at Ballarat running 25.07 and nearly ending up in the car park on the home turn he went that wide. What would he of ran if he railed.

On Greyhound data, of our top 10 dogs thus far for 2003 statistically on their points system, 5 are by imported blood in their dam line. Most Awesome, Boomeroo, Cyrus The Virus, Arvo's Junior and Waterview Star. All Group 1 winners!!!!!!!!

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Find Member's Posts Jun 18 2003, 01:31 PM Post #35

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Westy,
I'm not so sure it's the Imports more the quality of the imports. If the powers that be get this Frozen Seamen thing happening then maybe it will be possible for all of us to gain access to the best sires in each country and then maybe our opinions of imports will change. In fairness we don't send our best sires overseas so we can hardly expect anyone else to reciprocate.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 18 2003, 02:42 PM Post #36

Schooling

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Comissioner,
I couldn't agree with you more. When the quality frozen semen starts reaching our shores that's when our breeding scene will be at it's best. We just need more options when choosing a sire for our bitches. Almost every top sire in Australia is from Malawi's Prince, Credibility, Head Honcho or New Tears lines. All wonderful lines and without doubt some of the best in the world,but when you think about it there's not much choice when your bitch has up to three or four of those lines in her pedigree and you want to use a leading stud dog.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 18 2003, 11:26 PM Post #37

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seing this post is supposed to be about sire lines & dam lines,it would be remiss of me not to mention that dennis reids damline came to the fore once again in the queensland cup heats
annies commando & twirly girl both in the final
elles commando x gotta return
benjason x gotta besolid
both from a very successful litter owned by the reids & trained by mick zammit.also in the final is city of sydney from the famous fools damline of helen lamberton once again the cream rises to the top.cheers
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Find Member's Posts Jun 19 2003, 03:37 AM Post #38

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Yes Bobsyar,

and Road Closed (Questions x Gotta Return) was pretty impressive in winning a heat of the Queensland Derby showing nice early speed to lead and hang on in 30.31.

Gee, it would be nice to have a couple of broodies like Gotta Return & Gotta Be Solid.
They make it look easy!

Burglar.

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Find Member's Posts Jun 19 2003, 04:40 AM Post #39

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Westy & Commish ... l agree with your philosophy but explain this to me .... when Aust first aquired greyhounds from Ireland over 80/100 years ago ... we would have only got the leftovers or 2nd best ... (a fact further vindicated by reading the ANZGA minutes from the '60s) ... and since the 60's, l cannot recall a number one UK sire coming to our shores to help improve our breed ... and yet according to all the Oz pundits we have the best dogs in the world .... if that's true, how did we achieve this ??

Also Paul Wheeler has imported plenty of FS from the States .. yet he has a very poor success rate with the top sires there ... Molotov, P's Raisin Cain & Grey's Statesman etc .. but he has a great response with dogs that the US breeders don't rate as highly ... Braddy & EJ's Douglas ... again explaination ???

Surely the exercise relating to the success of Top Honcho & Frightful Flash in Ireland serves as a timely reminder that we have to keep a more open mind to what will and what won't work .. both here and overseas

They didn't get 1/2 a chance over here ... but then again .. maybe they may not have worked here anyway .. jeez how confusing ???

Also if you want changes to the current breeding rules it is VERY IMPORTANT that you let the ANZGA know now !!!

BTW Bobsyar ... Plane Charmaine (JTB x Gotta Return) ... 4 bitches to Riverlee Bale .. l'm excited

regards

Geoff

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Find Member's Posts Jun 19 2003, 08:24 AM Post #40

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GYE , I hardly think "according to the OZ Pundits" would stand up very well on the world scene...even though I also would like to think we have the best dogs. That aside and saying for arguements sake we were right just imagine if our bitches had worked so well with the second stringers how far we would be in front if we ever had the best. Up until now like it or not we have never been given the top dogs from any other country....and who could blame them after all we don't give ours. Maybe when we do have this facility we can all move to the level we should have years ago !!

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As we said earlier regarding the sire duplicated top and bottom of a pedigree, you will see his dam Inspire Me has New Tears top and bottom. It was suggested that for her matings to be a success, you would have to bring back to her a sire that carries her damsire Malawi's Prince in her pedigree.
This is exactly what Go Wild Teddy brought in.
In fact Web Of Silence (dam of GWT) is Malawi's Prince/Acacia Park and both those appear through the middle of Inspire Me.
Inspired breeding by Brad Northfield.

Surely High Earner will be still be the fav cosidering his hasn't drawn too badly in 3 and given equal luck, he a bit on this dog....

cheers

the tip is the TWO wants to get off the track at the start

DB

Pat

The position of Waverly Supreme in the pedigree of Token Prince is an extremely interesting topic.
When I went to see thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken McLean in June, I showed him the pedigree of Token Prince (among many others) and informed him he was the leading sire in Australia.
He saw the double-up of Waverly Supreme in the position it was in and said "for that dog to be a great success at stud the bitches he mates MUST carry the sires that appear in the middle of his pedigree i.e. Bowetzel, but more importantly Brother Fox".
Fortunately for Token Prince there are any number of broodbitches that carry Brother Fox or his half brother Acacia Park in their damlines.
If you look on Greyhound Data at the top progeny sired by Token Prince EVERY ONE (except Mandagery Man) carries Brother Fox or Acacia Park in their damline.
Mandagery Man carries TWO crosses of Bowetzel's sire Second Stage in his dam

See...Queen Lauryn...

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