5.67, 14.25, 30.12

When you look at the sections for High Earner(5.73), Full Blast(5.87) and Bogie Bomber(5.67), it explains a lot about the quality of the form surrounding this race.

Cr was actually on his worst behaviour, something a few of the 'i told you so' posters should dwell on. They havent been 'right', only lucky.

Graeme - there are clearly some (not you) that needed to see Cosmic Rumble do what he did in the Easter Egg final in order to get an idea of what capabilities, besides speed, might be in his genes.

I, for one, have taken Jeff's arguments about the limitations of the offspring of Irish bred dogs (in terms of being competitive in top company) seriously - Cosmic Rumble has shown by his efforts over the last 3 weeks that he is highly competitive in the best company available - that's important for me to see in assessing a dog as a stud dog.

I was also very impressed with (Premier Fantasy bitch) Flash Of Light's form through the series - fourth behind Cosmic Rumble, High Earner and Cindeen Shelby in the toughest heat, and then a great second behind Cindeen Shelby in the Ambrosoli. I currently have a bitch in pup to Premier Fantasy and plan on using Cosmic Rumble next time - so these issues regarding the capabilities of the offspring of Irish dogs are sharply in focus for me.

PS
LOL - I just read Jeff's latest post above - keep trying Jeff - your role as critic, however diehard, is useful.

Would you take odds-on about him, if that race was re-run next week?

Regardless of ability, would anyone take odds-on about any dog, in any race at wenty, if they knew beforehand, that its first section would be 5.67?

The correct answer is, off course not, which puts into perspective what should be taken from saturdays win, nothing.

If Fancy Mandy hadnt slightly miss-timed the start, CR would have been beaten easily.

How anyone can seriously justify an opinion on the vagaries of one race, defies belief.

p.s. LOL the 'devils (advocate) work is never done.

cheers, jeff

Jeff - I very rarely back any dog odds on - and no I wouldn't take odds on about him if the race was re run next week - nor would I be keen to take odds on about any group 1 winner in a rerun of the race they won the following week - unless perhaps they were in box 1.

The argument had been that offspring of imports, and Cosmic Rumble in particular, wasn't competitive in top company.

But history now shows that he is one of three dogs thas won both heat and semi of the Egg, the semi only half a length slower than Fancy Mandy - and he was in the toughest semi - itself worthy of a Group 1 final.

The fact that Cosmic Rumble was the one to make it 3 in a row shows his class through and through. Many Group 1 finals are significantly slower than the heats - Darren MacDonald said before the race that he expected the final to be run in around 30 seconds - hardly a surprising comment.

To comment after the race that the dog was lucky because the times were slow - well I think you know enough about big finals not to believe that one yourself - It's a different sort of race - that was the point - it was exactly the sort of race that Cosmic Rumble needed to prove himself in - and he did.
Cheers,
Tom

Certain dogs here can do flash runs but people would not consider using them.

and with the advent of the computer, we are able to cross reference the stud book details, and 'testmate' and see for ourselves within seconds, what 'clicks' with the dams line.

sounds all to simple i know, but its a huge bolster compared to the old days of a 'book' to trace genetics.

here we do place a huge onus on the performance. classic winners a must,speed dogs are a high rating,and strength and stamina follow.
take a dog like MANTRA LAD here. the perfect all round machine...could sprint, stay and lead or come from behind, the perfect animal who should be what we are looking for as a stud.
but,and its a big but,he will more than likely be classified in the 'stayer' mould, and we dont utilise them as studs very well.

but as we all know, its a game of chance this breeding caper....sometimes it works, most times it dont, so whats the right combination for success?
we all have our theories, and beleive it or not, there all different...now isnt that funny, so wheres the science?

if you have a very good dam line, stick with it and keep breeding right through as daughters,and grand daughters etc; are where the fruits of the hard work take shape...i beleive.

as far as COSMIC RUMBLE is concerned, im sure it says he was the winner....how he did it is irellevant, he did it, and all the hard luck stories of all the other contestants means diddly...when you look and see the results, his name is down as the winner. and thats what we all strive to do....win.

daz

If Cosmic Rumble reproduces his habits in his pups, and like every sire 99% will be at least .50+ slower than he, then he will fail as a sire. Watch Hella Good's run from last night, as he appears to have the Spiral Nikita habits.

To sum up the rest of your argument, it presents very much like 'hey look there's a swallow, summers here'. You hit the nail on the head earlier yourself, when you noted that the dog HAS improved his racing habits with age, age which 99% of pups with those habits will never get, and thats the decider here, as we both know how quickly most breeders turn pups over.

I'm not debating theory here, but the reality(right or wrong) of how most trainers churn racing stock in practice. Its why the merits of the imports is such a constant 'hot topic', as regardless of ability there racing pattern usually leads to disappointment.

EXTERNAL LINK

Rumble may retire

6 April, 2010.
GROUP 1 Golden Easter Egg winner Cosmic Rumble could have run his last race.
Breeder, owner and former trainer Steve Kavanagh said today: "How do I top that?"
Cosmic Rumble (Spiral Nikita-Spiritual Rumble) came from last to win the $250,000 to the winner final at Wentworth Park on Saturday night.
Despite the fact Kavanagh trained legend Brother Fox, Australian Cup winner Smooth Rumble, and countless star performers, he rated Cosmic Rumble's victory as thrilling as any.
"I was part of the victory of Cool Performance in the Irish Derby, and that was a huge thrill as well," said Steve.
"But the fact we bred this dog and own him ... that's somethihng."
Kavanagh said he is being swamped with requests to use Cosmic Rumble at stud.
"The dog went back to Victoria with (trainer) Darren McDonald after the race, but he and I will have a talk about his future within the next few days," said Steve.
He said he was inclined to retire the dog without racing again.
"We have already had his fertility checked and actually collected 13 straws from him. His fertility is sensational," said Steve. "He will only be available via frozen semen."
One of the first phone calls Steve received after the victory on Saturday night was from Ann Bourke in Ireland.
Ann, her husband Shaun, and son Steve, run Newpark Stud where Kavanagh trained out of during a year-long stint some years ago.
"The second was from Paul Horig, my stud advisor," said Steve.
Kavanagh was overjoyed to hear that on Saturday Mystic Rumble, a litter sister to Cosmic Rumble, came on season while in training with McDonald.
"She is a bitch with fantastic ability," said Steve. "She'll go to Bombastic Shiraz."

I like it! CLICK HERE - not too different from the one I have planned CLICK HERE (Other than the fact that Mystic Rumble holds the Casino 411m track record!)

LOL Jeff Jeff Jeff, they still pay out on "lucky", you can also make your own luck in a race, others made errors and didn't win CR made errors and still won, says something about the dog.

You made comments previously stating Spirals run wide, don't push hard etc, this dog railed hard , pushed thru the field and won the Easter EGG, give the dog some credit.

Many congratulations to connections !

Hi Karin - you can see it on thedogs website - you will have to register to see the videos. This link should take you to the right meeting EXTERNAL LINK - Wentworth Park Saturday April 3, go to Race 8. Click on the video. then click on the arrow - thay can take a while to load.
Cheers,
Tom

I know its the Egg, but as Ryan will back up, for bookies and punters, its just another race, what they call them means nothing. We do see things differently to owners and trainers, and whereas i'm pleased for the breeder(its a great achievement), the race itself will be rated as a 3/4/5th grade FFA, which because of they way it was run(track conditions), offers little in the way of future form.

I know its now the fashion, but I dont like the term "group' racing. It wasnt something i'd ever heard of, and means nothing in terms of form or actual class. But if its credit your looking for, for CR, then the semi win was his best run(of his career), in what was a better class of race than the final.(can someone please call an ambulance for Tom)

In the heats 3 weeks ago, I gave some examples of overs, if you check them you'll find that actual class earnt through the grades was a common factor, and dogs which had 'Group' class, with hindsight, were sent out way unders by the public. As a punter or a bookie, I think the term "group' racing is a red herring, and its probably the same for breeders, but i'm not expecting anyone to agree.

oh the changes of life and marketing.
gunna go and have a cuppa.
daz

Jeff im starting to think you have a disliking to this purely on it being an import sire or your back pocket.

In one sentance you are knocking its ability because it hadnt won a group race and then you say group races mean nothing after it wins one. I must ask again how does CR race record hold up with the dogs i mentioned on times , achievement and race career records.

The rest, your trying to compare apples with oranges, but starting price tells you what the consensus was before the race, and CR wasnt regarded as the best dog in either heat, semi or final, and he is still the same dog which ran LAST at Horsham before the Egg.

Its in the form and how a dog was judged BEFORE the race, that will provide you with the answers you seek. Winning doesnt actually mean that much, as if you run the race again, you'll almost certainly see a different result.

Like on sat night, if CR had run .03 faster to the first bend, its unlikely that he would have run a place. Thats why I dont like Group racing, the result is too reliant on chance.

Go through his form and compare his starting price's with the form and starting price's of successful stud dogs, and judge for yourself if he meets the standard. The price assessors may appear to get a dog wrong once or twice, but not over time. This dog had 40 starts, about half in good class races, look for yourself how he was judged, and how he performed.

The first thing you'll notice is how he rated compared to Vellocette and High Earner.

Your right Dean, there were no excuses, though there should be a few questions asked about some of the runs.

And Dmac has certainly shown us all last year how to get dogs to win the big races. Which would you rate as his best, other than sat night?