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John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 01:07
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well talking about the follow on how many dogs grab each other at the finish of the pull up we don't get to see enough of that part of a race and if you happen to get a few very keen dogs like Milo's Charm etc well who is going in to break up the melee.Follow on may be good for nonnies that when they finish they want to run around wagging their but for serious dogs ..maybe another story will be told.....how many trainers have raced on the follow on and had their dog mauled now for mine it must happen for the simple fact I have noticed some trainers in NZ having great difficulty getting them off the lure..are trial tracks going to have the same lures as the FOL tracks why don't the trainers with these good dogs race more on the FOL ..how often does Rob Britton etc take a trailer load of young dogs down to race the FOL to gain keenness and experience...since this debacle we have now, people are grasping at straws trying to work the alternatives
Jamie Quinlivian Australia (Verified User) Posts 8727 Dogs 10 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 01:17
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John my old mate, the Brittons actually take a trailer load of dogs to SA fairly often. I think it was only last year they took about 12 to Mt.Gambier. Or it could have been the Dailly's. I doubt it was for the prizemoney.
Kev Galloway Australia (Verified User) Posts 2447 Dogs 5 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 01:53
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John McAlister wrote:
well talking about the follow on how many dogs grab each other at the finish of the pull up we don't get to see enough of that part of a race and if you happen to get a few very keen dogs like Milo's Charm etc well who is going in to break up the melee.Follow on may be good for nonnies that when they finish they want to run around wagging their but for serious dogs ..maybe another story will be told.....how many trainers have raced on the follow on and had their dog mauled now for mine it must happen for the simple fact I have noticed some trainers in NZ having great difficulty getting them off the lure..are trial tracks going to have the same lures as the FOL tracks why don't the trainers with these good dogs race more on the FOL ..how often does Rob Britton etc take a trailer load of young dogs down to race the FOL to gain keenness and experience...since this debacle we have now, people are grasping at straws trying to work the alternatives
The serious dogs are the ones they have trouble getting off the lure.never seen a melee on the FOL in Qld.the pen is the place for melees.
Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 02 Mar 2015 01:54
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Jamie Quinlivian wrote:
John my old mate, the Brittons actually take a trailer load of dogs to SA fairly often. I think it was only last year they took about 12 to Mt.Gambier. Or it could have been the Dailly's. I doubt it was for the prizemoney.
We're told Rob B breeds for strength so as I stated earlier it's no wonder he's in favour of the FOL and not surprising at all that he might take dogs to Mt Gambier to race behind it, if in fact it was him and not the Dailly's (who train dogs for PAW remember) as you mentioned. Same goes for Geoff, PAW and Sandro, while the Iver's and Hallinans may well be in favour of the FOL for the same reason.
Usually, dogs that can run distance aren't hard chasers but of course we'll get someone post up a few dozen dogs from the hundreds of thousands bred over the past three decades trying to prove I'm wrong, which is why I've highlighted 'usually'.
What's really (not) surprising is that for all the breeding for strength by those 'luminaries' and others we had a dog with just ONE win from 35 starts (a maiden over 450m and with a total of $3,060 in prizemoney mind you) make the 4 heats of a $100k Group One race on Saturday in the State that has more top class dogs than any other. So in effect the 32nd best dog was not really very good and there were others in there that weren't a whole lot better.
Breeding for strength at the expense of chase is failing. Bringing in the FOL is a bandaid measure and there's no evidence that suggests it will do anything to stop the current issue we have of live baiting for dogs without the hard chase instinct - obviously it's not required for hard chasers, although no doubt some people would use it for them which would send them over the top.
Paul Wheeler Australia (Verified User) Posts 329 Dogs 8 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 02:01
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I have had plenty of dogs that have been given a ticket for one thing or another here in Aus , and I can tell you NONE have reoffended once sent to NZ with the FOL.
Where is the proof that the FOL dose not help ?
Paw
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 02 Mar 2015 02:15
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PAW
They have no proof.
Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 02 Mar 2015 02:18
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
PAW
They have no proof.
Who are "they" that have said it doesn't help some nonnies chase harder?
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 02 Mar 2015 02:25
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Graeme Beasley wrote:
Jamie Quinlivian wrote:
John my old mate, the Brittons actually take a trailer load of dogs to SA fairly often. I think it was only last year they took about 12 to Mt.Gambier. Or it could have been the Dailly's. I doubt it was for the prizemoney.
We're told Rob B breeds for strength so as I stated earlier it's no wonder he's in favour of the FOL and not surprising at all that he might take dogs to Mt Gambier to race behind it, if in fact it was him and not the Dailly's (who train dogs for PAW remember) as you mentioned. Same goes for Geoff, PAW and Sandro, while the Iver's and Hallinans may well be in favour of the FOL for the same reason.
Usually, dogs that can run distance aren't hard chasers but of course we'll get someone post up a few dozen dogs from the hundreds of thousands bred over the past three decades trying to prove I'm wrong, which is why I've highlighted 'usually'.
What's really (not) surprising is that for all the breeding for strength by those 'luminaries' and others we had a dog with just ONE win from 35 starts (a maiden over 450m and with a total of $3,060 in prizemoney mind you) make the 4 heats of a $100k Group One race on Saturday in the State that has more top class dogs than any other. So in effect the 32nd best dog was not really very good and there were others in there that weren't a whole lot better.
Breeding for strength at the expense of chase is failing. Bringing in the FOL is a bandaid measure and there's no evidence that suggests it will do anything to stop the current issue we have of live baiting for dogs without the hard chase instinct - obviously it's not required for hard chasers, although no doubt some people would use it for them which would send them over the top. As Geoff's figures show, we now have more dogs than ever getting tickets.
Graeme
Not that long ago, for a major staying race a club was lucky to get 2 heats of 8 dogs
The fact that The Meadows was able to get 4 heats with full fields is a testimony to the fact that the trainers and the owners are looking for 600m+ greyhounds.
So what if a dog with one win entered the heats?
The Laurels and other age classic races held in Victoria are full of dogs with one or two wins. Are they lesser races?
They are the best of their age at the time.
Just like the 32 dogs that went around in the 725m heats were the best 32 nominated at the time.
Look, there is room for all manners of dogs in our racing programmes.
The FOL gives all the dogs to stay interested in racing for a longer period of time and with concurrent programmes for Masters/Veterans races will lessen the extent of the wastage factor
Now, the Olympics would be boring if there was only 100m sprints on the whole program.
I don't know what you are worried about with the breeding aspect of it.
We have had 50 years on the current lure and catching pen system and have been breeding speed on speed since time immemorial.
Why do we have more non-chasers and fighters than ever before?
Using the breeding and chase angle, it shows the current lure and catching pen system has actually failed the breed, as for trainers to keep their charges up to the max they have had to rely on live baiting.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 02 Mar 2015 02:29
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Graeme Beasley wrote:
Sandro Bechini wrote:
PAW
They have no proof.
Who are "they" that have said it doesn't help some nonnies chase harder?
I didn't call the dogs with tickets, 'nonnies'.
You did.
They are only 'dogs with tickets', under the current lure/catching pen system.
If the NZ or old Albion/Angle Park system was in place that incidence would be much lower.
Kev Galloway Australia (Verified User) Posts 2447 Dogs 5 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 02:29
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Graeme Beasley wrote:
Sandro Bechini wrote:
PAW
They have no proof.
Who are "they" that have said it doesn't help some nonnies chase harder?
Why are the close the gate dropkicks so stuck in the last century ?
Graeme Beasley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3265 Dogs 27 / Races 5 02 Mar 2015 02:30
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Graeme Beasley wrote:
Jamie Quinlivian wrote:
John my old mate, the Brittons actually take a trailer load of dogs to SA fairly often. I think it was only last year they took about 12 to Mt.Gambier. Or it could have been the Dailly's. I doubt it was for the prizemoney.
We're told Rob B breeds for strength so as I stated earlier it's no wonder he's in favour of the FOL and not surprising at all that he might take dogs to Mt Gambier to race behind it, if in fact it was him and not the Dailly's (who train dogs for PAW remember) as you mentioned. Same goes for Geoff, PAW and Sandro, while the Iver's and Hallinans may well be in favour of the FOL for the same reason.
Usually, dogs that can run distance aren't hard chasers but of course we'll get someone post up a few dozen dogs from the hundreds of thousands bred over the past three decades trying to prove I'm wrong, which is why I've highlighted 'usually'.
What's really (not) surprising is that for all the breeding for strength by those 'luminaries' and others we had a dog with just ONE win from 35 starts (a maiden over 450m and with a total of $3,060 in prizemoney mind you) make the 4 heats of a $100k Group One race on Saturday in the State that has more top class dogs than any other. So in effect the 32nd best dog was not really very good and there were others in there that weren't a whole lot better.
Breeding for strength at the expense of chase is failing. Bringing in the FOL is a bandaid measure and there's no evidence that suggests it will do anything to stop the current issue we have of live baiting for dogs without the hard chase instinct - obviously it's not required for hard chasers, although no doubt some people would use it for them which would send them over the top. As Geoff's figures show, we now have more dogs than ever getting tickets.
Graeme
Not that long ago, for a major staying race a club was lucky to get 2 heats of 8 dogs
The fact that The Meadows was able to get 4 heats with full fields is a testimony to the fact that the trainers and the owners are looking for 600m+ greyhounds.
So what if a dog with one win entered the heats?
The Laurels and other age classic races held in Victoria are full of dogs with one or two wins. Are they lesser races?
They are the best of their age at the time.
Just like the 32 dogs that went around in the 725m heats were the best 32 nominated at the time.
Look, there is room for all manners of dogs in our racing programmes.
The FOL gives all the dogs to stay interested in racing for a longer period of time and with concurrent programmes for Masters/Veterans races will lessen the extent of the wastage factor
Now, the Olympics would be boring if there was only 100m sprints on the whole program.
I don't know what you are worried about with the breeding aspect of it.
We have had 50 years on the current lure and catching pen system and have been breeding speed on speed since time immemorial.
Why do we have more non-chasers and fighters than ever before?
Using the breeding and chase angle, it shows the current lure and catching pen system has actually failed the breed, as for trainers to keep their charges up to the max they have had to rely on live baiting.
Full fields of 'what' is the question. You'd argue with yourself while looking in the mirror. The Laurels is an age restricted race for bitches ffs, of course it's limited in how many runs a bitch can have.
As for whatever else you have to say I don't really care, I'm done arguing.
Ray Webster Australia (Verified User) Posts 380 Dogs 72 / Races 27 02 Mar 2015 02:30
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I have yet to see a "melee" as John calls it amongst dogs finishing on to the lure. However, I have had first hand experience of problems in this regard with the catching pen. Cousin Callum severely savaged Vintage Blend at Wenty one night putting that chaser out of action for a couple of months. We had no alternative but to send him to South Australia where he raced with the FOL without ever a problem. We have also sent several dogs with chasing issues here in Australia to NZ. Almost all have gone on to be most successful and progress to top grade.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 02 Mar 2015 02:33
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Graeme Beasley wrote:
Full fields of 'what' is the question. You'd argue with yourself while looking in the mirror. The Laurels is an age restricted race for bitches ffs, of course it's limited in how many runs a bitch can have.
As for whatever else you have to say I don't really care, I'm done arguing.
Why does the Laurel's let Grade 7 dogs into the race?
Why not just make it best 32?
The reason is because it is designed to give all bitches of that age an opprtunity to have a shot at winning it if the trainer is deemed good enough
Just like running as many heats of a major staying race that they can field. Why deny the opportunity for a person with a promising stayer the chance?
Your argument is flawed.
Jamie Quinlivian Australia (Verified User) Posts 8727 Dogs 10 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 03:20
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Jamie Quinlivian wrote:
John my old mate, the Brittons actually take a trailer load of dogs to SA fairly often. I think it was only last year they took about 12 to Mt.Gambier. Or it could have been the Dailly's. I doubt it was for the prizemoney.
Yes it was the Brittons. July last year. I remember Spud Regis was one of the dogs that went across and I thought he was with the Daillys he was making a comeback with R.Britton.
Jamie Quinlivian Australia (Verified User) Posts 8727 Dogs 10 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 03:26
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Ray Webster wrote:
I have yet to see a "melee" as John calls it amongst dogs finishing on to the lure. However, I have had first hand experience of problems in this regard with the catching pen. Cousin Callum severely savaged Vintage Blend at Wenty one night putting that chaser out of action for a couple of months. We had no alternative but to send him to South Australia where he raced with the FOL without ever a problem. We have also sent several dogs with chasing issues here in Australia to NZ. Almost all have gone on to be most successful and progress to top grade.
I might be corrected on this but I believe Cousin Callums catcher was told by stewards to always be the first to collect their dog. Not sure the FOL stopped his natural level of aggression much at all.
Kev Galloway Australia (Verified User) Posts 2447 Dogs 5 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 03:51
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Jamie Quinlivian wrote:
Ray Webster wrote:
I have yet to see a "melee" as John calls it amongst dogs finishing on to the lure. However, I have had first hand experience of problems in this regard with the catching pen. Cousin Callum severely savaged Vintage Blend at Wenty one night putting that chaser out of action for a couple of months. We had no alternative but to send him to South Australia where he raced with the FOL without ever a problem. We have also sent several dogs with chasing issues here in Australia to NZ. Almost all have gone on to be most successful and progress to top grade.
I might be corrected on this but I believe Cousin Callums catcher was told by stewards to always be the first to collect their dog. Not sure the FOL stopped his natural level of aggression much at all.
Easier to catch of the FOL than another dogs motor boat.
Craig Andrews Australia (Verified User) Posts 2014 Dogs 15 / Races 2 02 Mar 2015 06:42
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Some people have their heads firmly buried in the sand, if you are not changing then you are stagnant, and if you're stagnant for too long you get left behind. Bring in the FOL at all tracks ASAP.
Rob Horne Australia (Verified User) Posts 522 Dogs 1 / Races 3 02 Mar 2015 08:22
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Paul Wheeler wrote:
I have had plenty of dogs that have been given a ticket for one thing or another here in Aus , and I can tell you NONE have reoffended once sent to NZ with the FOL.
Where is the proof that the FOL dose not help ?
Paw
PAW,
Does this mean you are in favour of FOL introduction Aust wide?
Paul Wheeler Australia (Verified User) Posts 329 Dogs 8 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 08:33
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PAW,
Does this mean you are in favour of FOL introduction Aust wide ....................................................
You bet I am .........Yes Yes Yes
ASAP
Paw
Robert Morris Australia (Verified User) Posts 695 Dogs 0 / Races 0 02 Mar 2015 08:52
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Just a thought for those against the FOL for breeding reasons. Perhaps the current lure system combined with live baiting is causing more damage to the breed. How many stud dogs that have been used in last decade were not natural chasers and were only able to achieve their potential through live baiting.
Do you have questions about greyhound racing?
