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Lynda Bonner United Kingdom (Team Member) Posts 6240 Dogs 77 / Races 15 18 Dec 2017 08:47
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Carole Shinkwin wrote:
Well Brian you are the man with all the answers so I guess all of us must bow down to you. Not much point any of us going against your points of view as you appear to have tunnel vision. I am only going by what I was told also the guy who owns the knackers yard where I get my meat from, there are lot of us using it and we all get tested regularly, including a relative of his who races greyhounds. Keep it going Brian because it is you doing and Antis job for them not us.
Many valid points Carole. If a banned substance is present over the threshold (if there is one) then there is no excuse. It shouldnt be there.
Explanations of how it might have got there or its debatable effects on the dog are not an excuse for poor management by the person responsible for training the dog. That simply takes our eye of the ball. The repercussions: another bitch misses its qualifying place in the final. The antis have more ammunition with seemingly pro-racers defending the indefensible. Brian may have tunnel vision, but he certainly doesnt speak for all pro-racers.
Thomas Bambury Ireland (Verified User) Posts 69 Dogs 1 / Races 0 18 Dec 2017 08:58
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Brian Loughnane wrote:
Tom I just left Lidl 500g of mince which equals 1.2 lbs is 3.59 so 3.59 per dog per day iv 60 dogs guess how much I'd be spending on meat a week 1500 and a year 78 thousand 500 euros...I to can't understand why anyone uses knacker meat...
Brian if you can buy 2lbs of top quality shop mince for 5 euros and knacker mince for 2 euros would you risk for 3 euros all the problems that follow the cheap stuff and would you feed the dyed stuff to a top class racing dog knacker meat is only for rearing or older dogs that are not racing every dog handler knows the risks and I am sure don't use it
if we were paid the same level of prize money as Aussies, we could afford to buy shop meat. however i have bought lidl mince and and with the level of poor ingredients in same meat ie high fat content among others, i was in fact doing more harm than good. proper shop meat costs an arm and a leg. the main reason few dogs are positive for phenobarbital in england is due to poor diet, ie they are fed poor quality foods ie kibble, and little or no meat. only the trainer eats steak . Thomas bambury is correct in his assessment of knackers meat, but beggars cannot be choosers and such is the life of the majority of dog owners. i once had a litter of pups who all fell asleep for more than half a day after eating a calf that had been put down by injection. also if dogs eat the intestines of such animals especially the liver, then serious overload of sedative can occur. Regrettably this bitches misfortune is a storm in a teacup, and i am certain that the trainer is above board and innocent in this instance
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 18 Dec 2017 23:39
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laurence byrne wrote:
if we were paid the same level of prize money as Aussies, we could afford to buy shop meat. however i have bought lidl mince and and with the level of poor ingredients in same meat ie high fat content among others, i was in fact doing more harm than good. proper shop meat costs an arm and a leg. the main reason few dogs are positive for phenobarbital in england is due to poor diet, ie they are fed poor quality foods ie kibble, and little or no meat. only the trainer eats steak . Thomas bambury is correct in his assessment of knackers meat, but beggars cannot be choosers and such is the life of the majority of dog owners. i once had a litter of pups who all fell asleep for more than half a day after eating a calf that had been put down by injection. also if dogs eat the intestines of such animals especially the liver, then serious overload of sedative can occur. Regrettably this bitches misfortune is a storm in a teacup, and i am certain that the trainer is above board and innocent in this instance
Great Post Laurence and very well accessed
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 19 Dec 2017 00:29
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lynda bonner wrote:
Carole Shinkwin wrote:
Well Brian you are the man with all the answers so I guess all of us must bow down to you. Not much point any of us going against your points of view as you appear to have tunnel vision. I am only going by what I was told also the guy who owns the knackers yard where I get my meat from, there are lot of us using it and we all get tested regularly, including a relative of his who races greyhounds. Keep it going Brian because it is you doing and Antis job for them not us.
Many valid points Carole. If a banned substance is present over the threshold (if there is one) then there is no excuse. It shouldnt be there.
Explanations of how it might have got there or its debatable effects on the dog are not an excuse for poor management by the person responsible for training the dog. That simply takes our eye of the ball. The repercussions: another bitch misses its qualifying place in the final. The antis have more ammunition with seemingly pro-racers defending the indefensible. Brian may have tunnel vision, but he certainly doesnt speak for all pro-racers.
No tunnel vision with me lynda and I ain't defending the indefensible straight out not one person that was pointing the finger could tell me what pentobarbital does to enhance a greyhounds performance my argue was it was far more likely a case of food contamination rather than a deliberate act of fraudulent behaviour the tunnel vision is coming from our ex doggie friends and newly reformed super antis that want every single person that makes a mistake nailed to the cross if I fed bread with poppy seeds on it am I a drug cheat cause guess what yup that to will test positive... Open yer eyes this whole drugs thing needs to be re wrote their is medication a dog may need but can't have it because he will test food contamination if the drug in the system has no bearing as a performance enhancing drug have it reviewed... Performance enhancers no tolerance what so ever throw the book...
First and foremost to feed knackers meat you have to have an up to date licence granted by your Agriculture department, who inspect your premises to see you have the right facilities to store such. To feed this meat without a licence and for the person to sell it to you is breaking the EU Rules. You have to keep records yourself as you are given a receipt from the knackers yard which then you enter into the book supplied by your Agriculture dept. The knacker yards have to have up to date licence to collect fallen cattle. The farmer has to keep up to date records of cows etc that have received care from a vet and have been pts by a vet. These animals are not allowed to go into the food chain or fed to dogs they have to be burnt by an authorised person, all this is EU ruling. Where I get my meat from when the driver collects from a farm he is given the appropriate paperwork from the farmer and any cow that has had care from a vet is marked with a red dye and is burnt. So if anyone is receiving meat from unauthorised people which does not have the name of supplier and date on the bag, and is not stained which is a vegetable dye then you are taking a big risk. There have to be records kept from day 1 what happens to the animal to the very end. So if someone is feeding a dead calf or meat got from a local farmer this is against all Irish/UK and EU regulations.
Terry Jordan Australia (Verified User) Posts 6018 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Dec 2017 10:24
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Carole Shinkwin wrote:
First and foremost to feed knackers meat you have to have an up to date licence granted by your Agriculture department, who inspect your premises to see you have the right facilities to store such. To feed this meat without a licence and for the person to sell it to you is breaking the EU Rules. You have to keep records yourself as you are given a receipt from the knackers yard which then you enter into the book supplied by your Agriculture dept. The knacker yards have to have up to date licence to collect fallen cattle. The farmer has to keep up to date records of cows etc that have received care from a vet and have been pts by a vet. These animals are not allowed to go into the food chain or fed to dogs they have to be burnt by an authorised person, all this is EU ruling. Where I get my meat from when the driver collects from a farm he is given the appropriate paperwork from the farmer and any cow that has had care from a vet is marked with a red dye and is burnt. So if anyone is receiving meat from unauthorised people which does not have the name of supplier and date on the bag, and is not stained which is a vegetable dye then you are taking a big risk. There have to be records kept from day 1 what happens to the animal to the very end. So if someone is feeding a dead calf or meat got from a local farmer this is against all Irish/UK and EU regulations.
Carole: There are people on here who would deem you be Horse/Whipped feeding knackers meat! What has happened to the Irish? I was raised though Orphanages, Boys homes in the 60's/70's in Aust. Can remember, but not fully understand the War. The British, Ira-Jerry Adams, Protestants-Ian Paisley etc Terrible times. I thought Shit the Irish are fiercely independent and TOUGH. Now a load of Marshmellows and Pussycats. Sorry but looking from afar, that's appears the way it is?? BTW. You show plenty of grit! (Are you Irish?) Tezza
Terry I have no problem feeding my dogs knacker meat have been doing for over 25 years when I lived in the UK where I come from and the 11 years here in Ireland. There are very big kennels here that use the same meat and no problems. It is probably why so many cocaine results are coming to light now, because blaming it on the meat has run it course. I was told a while back from someone that used to work where dry nuts are made, if you saw what went into them you would not be feeding them to your dogs, there are no guide lines as to what can be used as there is in human food. Put a bowl of cooked or raw meat down and a bowl of dry nuts see what your dog goes for.
First and foremost to feed knackers meat you have to have an up to date licence granted by your Agriculture department, who inspect your premises to see you have the right facilities to store such. To feed this meat without a licence and for the person to sell it to you is breaking the EU Rules. You have to keep records yourself as you are given a receipt from the knackers yard which then you enter into the book supplied by your Agriculture dept. The knacker yards have to have up to date licence to collect fallen cattle. The farmer has to keep up to date records of cows etc that have received care from a vet and have been pts by a vet. These animals are not allowed to go into the food chain or fed to dogs they have to be burnt by an authorised person, all this is EU ruling. Where I get my meat from when the driver collects from a farm he is given the appropriate paperwork from the farmer and any cow that has had care from a vet is marked with a red dye and is burnt. So if anyone is receiving meat from unauthorised people which does not have the name of supplier and date on the bag, and is not stained which is a vegetable dye then you are taking a big risk. There have to be records kept from day 1 what happens to the animal to the very end. So if someone is feeding a dead calf or meat got from a local farmer this is against all Irish/UK and EU regulations.
Ans all these rules and regulations can be brough down by mentioning HORSE MEAT sold as beef!
We dont know what we feed ourselves let alone what we feed our animals.
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 19 Dec 2017 13:05
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Carole Shinkwin wrote:
Terry I have no problem feeding my dogs knacker meat have been doing for over 25 years when I lived in the UK where I come from and the 11 years here in Ireland. There are very big kennels here that use the same meat and no problems. It is probably why so many cocaine results are coming to light now, because blaming it on the meat has run it course. I was told a while back from someone that used to work where dry nuts are made, if you saw what went into them you would not be feeding them to your dogs, there are no guide lines as to what can be used as there is in human food. Put a bowl of cooked or raw meat down and a bowl of dry nuts see what your dog goes for.
Carole your bang on I also have no problem feeding knackery meat to be fair iv never returned a positive and once apon a time I also was under same opinion on pentobarbital but a guy I know tested positive for it about 3 years ago and no way on earth would he give or even know how to give it to a dog he actually didn't even know what it was and since then I know of a few other guys that also tested positive and they to would be pretty much the same... Look all I'm saying is when their is a slight chance of a positive result through food contamination lay off the key board and let the system deal with it the sport has enough bad press as it is cocaine anabolic steroids etc total different story... I do think the whole drug system needs to be looked at pain killers anti inflammatory medication antibiotics etc should all be marked on a points system a dog should be allowed access to medication if needed but only under veterinary administration...as for the other drugs as in proper performance enhancers definitely needs to be enforced on a much higher level I think any dogs entering classics testing should be carried out on the nite of racing and following morning and randomly mid week...
If a greyhound has to be on painkillers, antibiotics or anti inflammatorys it's not fit to race, so no, there should be no leeway. Are all these guys that you say you know of that have proved positive, was the meat from a licensed knackery and were they all legally entitled to feed it to their dogs (hold a licence from the agriculture dept). In a recent case a guy blamed the meat when the stewards inspected his premises there was cat 2 meat on the premises so that incurred a 400 for not holding a licence.
Brian Walsh (Verified User) Posts 104 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Dec 2017 17:55
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I think Carole and Yvonne raise some fair points. This is only anecdotal evidence, but I believe that an animal p.t.s. with pentobarbital must NOT enter the human food chain AND must NOT be used for animal feed. I dont know if this is fact, but if it is, I would be questioning the Dept. Of Ag. As the IGB work with the Dept regarding welfare and drug testing, it would also be interesting to know what communications occurred between both regarding pentobarbital getting into the animal feed. The same could be asked of GBGB and DEFRA. The GBGB did find that Cat 3 meat was producing positives for pentobarbital; that is fact, it came from their own research (cat 3 meat from a liscenced knackery) Note: the above is only relevant IF an animal p.t.s with pentobarbital is NOT allowed to be used for animal feed
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 19 Dec 2017 22:14
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Carole Shinkwin wrote:
If a greyhound has to be on painkillers, antibiotics or anti inflammatorys it's not fit to race, so no, there should be no leeway. Are all these guys that you say you know of that have proved positive, was the meat from a licensed knackery and were they all legally entitled to feed it to their dogs (hold a licence from the agriculture dept). In a recent case a guy blamed the meat when the stewards inspected his premises there was cat 2 meat on the premises so that incurred a 400 for not holding a licence.
Carole that is up to a vet to decide not you if you had a dog in a Derby final and fell sick a couple of days before hand and a vet told you he'd be perfect for sat nite if he gave him a short course of antibiotics what would you say...i know what I'd say... Who do you think put the cost on licences on owners Igb or the department of agriculture or the online pretend greyhound racing fans AKA antis...now I'm bowing out of this conversation but bare one thing in mind no matter how loud ye shout it will all fall on deaf ears and the only ones who will pay the price is us through fines fees and costly regulations and this is what's crippling the ordinary dog man...and then ye'll all turn around and blame the igb... The whole topic started about pentobarbital and yet not one of ye can tell me exactly what pentobarbital does to enhance a greyhounds performance... A bunch of experts that know nothing I stated my point of view on the subject which was there was more reason to believe it was a case of food contamination rather than a deliberate act of doping ye seem to all go into crucifing mode when a positive shows up with out any knowledge of exactly what has happened and when told ye choose to believe the worst scenario this is a man's lively hood yer playing with and not one of us know how this is affecting him both personally and mentally regardless of what ye believe ye have no right to play judge and jury let the system that's in place deal with him with that I wish ye all a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year...
Terry Jordan Australia (Verified User) Posts 6018 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Dec 2017 01:50
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I'm confused! Brian posted on the 18/dec. in response to Thomas Bambury, Quote "I to cant understand why anyone uses knackers meat" unquote. Brian on the 19/dec to Carole Shinkwin. Quote "Carole your bang on I also have no problems feeding knackery meat" unquote. Some ones telling Porky pies? Brian why did you not respond to my post on "Positives" to Pentobarbital? Trainer fined 15 Thousand (about 11.5K Euro) to 2 positives? and leading Vet science advice. (Can repost) Please Mr. Moderator you cant possibly delete, no reason to!!!!
Teacher once told me "If you throw stones! expect some to be thrown back" Wise old bugger was she!
Brian it seems very strange to me and plenty of others, that cocaine is now being found in certain dogs, might it be that Pentobarbital is no longer the excuse, as it can be used with other drugs (which in some cases mask the more serious drug) and also can be used in small doses for highly excitable dogs, for instance dogs that run their race in the racing kennels.
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 20 Dec 2017 10:22
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And who gives these small doses a vet or the owner where does the owner get pentobarbital from you can't get it on line maybe the vets are selling it but I'd seriously doubt it. .. Carole do you honestly think a trainer that has zero qualifications in veterinary is going to inject a drug which is used to put down animals into his greyhound that's worth maybe 50k just to keep him relaxed come on like tell me your not that gullible...the topic isn't about cocaine so stop we all know their is zero excuses for that... Pentobarbital is found in meat it has no performance enhancing properties and no one is injecting their dogs with it... And in response to you Terry that was sarcasm as it would cost me 78 grand a year to buy supermarket meat the way tom was suggesting...
Chris Robertson Ireland (Verified User) Posts 1043 Dogs 28 / Races 0 20 Dec 2017 10:46
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Brian Loughnane wrote:
And who gives these small doses a vet or the owner where does the owner get pentobarbital from you can't get it on line maybe the vets are selling it but I'd seriously doubt it. .. Carole do you honestly think a trainer that has zero qualifications in veterinary is going to inject a drug which is used to put down animals into his greyhound that's worth maybe 50k just to keep him relaxed come on like tell me your not that gullible...the topic isn't about cocaine so stop we all know their is zero excuses for that... Pentobarbital is found in meat it has no performance enhancing properties and no one is injecting their dogs with it...
Brian you are thinking about one form & use of the drug, it also comes in various brand names (e.g. Nembutal) in pill form to control epilepsy, seizures & as a sedative. It's used by humans & for dogs & cats & would appear readily available to buy online. So has many uses beyond euthanasia, in liquid form.
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 20 Dec 2017 11:09
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Chris ya just looked that up on line I know that cos so did I what your buying in tablet form is fake and only a scam some of the sites are called peaceful sleep to the other side I also spoke with doctor declan Murphy and you can not buy this product on line or over the counter its one of the tightest controled drugs out their and is not available on prescription for epilepsy etc
Chris Robertson Ireland (Verified User) Posts 1043 Dogs 28 / Races 0 20 Dec 2017 11:27
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Brian Loughnane wrote:
Chris ya just looked that up on line I know that cos so did I what your buying in tablet form is fake and only a scam some of the sites are called peaceful sleep to the other side I also spoke with doctor declan Murphy and you can not buy this product on line or over the counter its one of the tightest controled drugs out their and is not available on prescription for epilepsy etc
Brian I've no idea how readily it is available, because I've never tried to buy it, or how you would use it to gain an advantage with a racing greyhound. But both possibilities are out there & must be considered not dismissed out of hand. Incidentally neither do I know where to buy Cocaine or Stanozolol or how you'd use them to gain an advantage with a racing Greyhound, but it would seem there are those that do & will.
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2514 Dogs 107 / Races 6 20 Dec 2017 11:51
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Chris I as much as anyone would like the sport drug free or sorry I won't say drug free but I will say cheat free as I do believe the whole drug script needs to be re wrote any drugs that only benefit the health of the dog be administrated by vet put on the back of dogs card signed and stamped by vet any other drugs that bare performance enhancing properties no excuse take your punishment... Chris my argument on this topic is the probability of pentobarbital found trough meat contamination far out weighs the chances of it being used to enhance the performance of the dog...what I can't understand is why are people so hell bent on seeing and believing and broadcasting the worst scenario when their is also a pretty logical scenario... Again let our sport handle these matters and lay off the keyboard our sport desperately needs positivity the more people ye tell our sport is going down the swanny the more will believe it...
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