Racing has two groups opposing it - those who don't like animals being raced and those who don't like gambling. Strategically, this product has given them both more ammunition.

On top of that, it will divert more gamblers away from proper bets - just as Mystery betting has done - thereby further detracting from the already small greyhound pools. Equally, it discourages fans from trying to better understand what makes the horses and dogs go round.

The prospect of lifting overall turnover in this way seems very slim.

The only thing was that it is dispersed via the intercode splits, not by the splits that are earnt now but thats another thread.

Apart from that, at least its something new, it may draw new punters into these pools, there are many pokie players, keno players and so forth that could be won over.

Lets not rubbish it until we see the results first?

However given its a tote pool only available in NSW then it is unlikely that the pools will be big enough for any serious punters to bet on. Could go the way of duets!

The Odds & Evens product gives punters the ability to bet on the outcome of the race identifying the first and second placegetters with only three possible outcomes.

Odds Both first and second place would be odd numbers - e.g. 1st place runner (Number 3) and 2nd place runner (Number 5)

Evens Both first and second place would be evens numbers - e.g. 1st place runner (Number 6) and 2nd place runner (Number 8)

Split The first and second place are odd and even numbers - e.g. 1st place runner (Number 5) and 2nd place runner (Number 4)

The Odds & Evens product will see all money earned from the bet type flow into the coffers of the three racing codes in NSW - thoroughbred racing, greyhound racing and harness racing.

Funds earned by the three codes will go towards the $7.5 million in prizemoney for the Golden Eagle and $1 million races in the greyhound and harness racing industries in NSW.

Can I have a Odds & Evens mystery bet?

Fair dinkum, what will they dream up next? What little money it attracts will only be diverted away from other pools.

What percentage of punters go for quinellas and exactas?

Mug punters tossing a coin, I think the money raised could be better spent but if it entices some new owners to enter into ownership then so be it but if long time owners/trainers are jumping ship for different reasons it makes one wonder.

To succeed, it requires people to physically leave the poker machine area and move over to the TAB area and then work out which of many bets they will have a go at. En route they will be waylaid by a pile of tickets offering Mystery bets, amongst others.

Having done all that (?) they will get an unknown and unpredictable dividend - apportioned somehow out of a composite Quinella/OddsEven pool in the range $1k to $2k (if they are lucky). Some intending Quinella gamblers will even be diverted to OddsEvens thereby making the basic Quinella product even less attractive.

And you will never know how much was bet on OddsEvens anyway.

Greyhound punting is already a dismal prospect due to the multiplicity of organisations asking for your cash - the pie is split so many ways that NT bookies can get away with blue murder.

It may or may not work at the gallops (due to volume) but it can never help greyhound racing. Greyhound authorities should be screaming blue murder. They are allowing the degradation of the betting market to continue.

TABCORP's action on any betting is prompted only by what goes on at the gallops. A change is then routinely passed on to other codes, regardless of its worth. That is possible only because the three codes sold their rights to TABCORP decades ago - short term gain for long term risk.

I feel as though you're blinded by some sort of ulterior motive. Your quote - "it requires people to physically leave the poker machine area and move over to the TAB area and then work out which of many bets they will have a go at" is partisan and doesn't reflect truly on the intentions of the introduction of 'odds and evens'.

This bet type is aimed at the 'mug punter' who doesn't give a rats arse what makes the horse or dog go around, all they care about is the thrill of the win, or loss for that matter. Like I said, there is a billion dollar market out there that was shut off to the public in late 2017 through the banning of online casinos and poker. TABCORP are simply trying to tap into that.

Adam,

For many years I have carefully watched what TABCORP and racing authorities do - for general policy reasons plus my personal interest in punting. There is no ulterior motive - only common sense and business needs.

My aim (above) was to guestimate what a potential customer might do - having closely observed them for all that time. I have done that because they shape the product and affect what dividend I might get.

But you are right - TABCORP is chasing a billion dollar market as it reasons it has exhausted the more traditional sources of punting and gambling. That's also why it keeps adding overseas venues to the program at all hours of the day and night.

OK, good luck to TABCORP shareholders but what does it do to help greyhound racing? The answer is nothing or negative. The introduction of all the mug bets - from Mysteries onwards to OddsEvens - has served to stuff up the entire greyhound betting market, obviously with the help of NT bookies who have all taken a bit here and a bit there (up to half in some areas).

Back to the key point. My observation of people habits tell me that poker machine players and race fans (punters or gamblers) are two different beasts. To play the pokies all you need is a spare finger. To bet on a dog you first have to want to do it, second you have to move to another area of most venues, third you have to choose amongst a myriad of betting products and tickets, most of which are unfamiliar to you. That's hard work.

Narrowing it down, OddsEvens is closely related to Duet which was a dead loss from the start. It was never popular itself and it served to rob turnover from the normal Quinella/Exacta pools, which were already getting dicey anyway. Obviously, they persevered with Duet for so long because some wizard in the ivory tower liked it. Gamblers did not.

Nor will they like OddsEvens. It will fail.

Overall, what gets forgotten is that the betting market is not an endless one. It is finite. The more races or products you offer the smaller the amount bet on each.

If someone can pull a rabbit out of the hat then well and good. But in the last 50 years it has happened only via Mystery bets and they have (a) taken cash from other pools and (b) distorted the dividends that better punters might otherwise expect (a mathematical certainty, as with boxed Trifectas etc).

TABCORP and racing authorities would be much better off if they concentrated on professionalising the market and the customers - a bit of education would go a long way.

"TABCORP and racing authorities would be much better off if they concentrated on professionalising the market and the customers - a bit of education would go a long way."

It is very easy to say do this and do that, without explaining how.

Maybe TABCORP needs a bit of education.

Drawing on your vast expertise, you should be able to show us examples of what TABCORP can do, to professionalise the market and the customers.

You ask a lot. Here and elsewhere I have demonstrated that TABCORP promotes to mugs only (for the dogs). That ignores commission rooms and discounted offers to big guys.

The product list alone confirms that - so does the increasing pressure on Mysteries and the like. TABCORP brochures concentrate only on telling you how to fill out a ticket - not to inform you about the tricks of punting.

Have they been successful? Not really. Coupled with pressure from NT the pools have been gradually decreasing. TABCORP has also joined with the NT guys in Fixed Odds processes (which are not supervised by state governments, as the normal tote is).

The Odds Evens deal is a desperate attempt to lift betting in a mature market - which TABCORP admits is going nowhere, hence its foray into casinos etc.

All those are basically negatives.

What's missing are punters of old and new punters who understand the dogs and the odds. But it's a chicken and egg problem. The racing product is poor, which is what I explained on another thread - tracks, field quality, betting pools, and that is why I quit.

The blame for that is due to racing authorities in two ways. First, the product needs fixing. Second, the pools must be increased, which is a big ask. That is primarily why I despair at these silly attempts to bring in new cash via Mysteries and OddsEvens - not to mention Neds 280s and the like - all of which dilute and distort the existing pools.

In turn, the fix to that is to combine the efforts by creating a national pool which all the players can fool around with to their heart's content. That needs multi state government action. Then, and only then, can you hope to see decent pools to bet into.

Fanciful, perhaps, but there is now no other way.

Put it this way. 20 years ago we had a lot of punters who had a fair idea of what makes a greyhound race. Now we don't. They have gone and been replaced (fortuitively in a sense) by mugs in pubs.

Whatever, educating today's gambler is the name of the game. They need HOW TO instructions just like cookbooks or gardening tips. None of that is helped by the continuing disaffection with studying maths in high schools - which is a serious national problem.

Let them lose their money as it won't be a positive experience about greyhound racing... but at least the sport may get some money out of it to support the influx of 300m races

Income from Odds and Evens betting is slated to fund the upcoming Million dollar race but none of us know how much that will generate nor are we likely to unless Tabcorp/GRNSW tell us. Theres a similar scheme for the gallops.

While I am here, lets emphasise that last years Million came half from Ladbrokes and half from the unclaimed dividend fund administered by the Minister ie from punters. An alleged taxpayers contribution was Nil, despite erroneous reports in some newspapers.

But lets take a guess at what that means today. Bear in mind that week to week and race to race turnover varies hugely according to time of night/size of field/feature races/proximity to harness events and the activity of the corporates (which might absorb 30% to 50% of overall betting).

At Wentworth Park last Saturday the Quinella pool (including an unstated Odds/Evens content) averaged $2,271, which is much the same as a normal Saturday. However, it was impacted by a big number in race 1 when it slotted in nicely between Menangle harness races. Lots of gamblers were around because the meeting ran from 6pm to 9pm. Also, 8 of 10 races had no Duet as the fields were smaller than 8. Duets usually pull in between $200 and $300.

On a typical Saturday night four months ago, prior to the start of Odds/Evens, that Quinella pool averaged $2,247. Three months ago (the Egg night) it was naturally much higher again.

Win and Exacta pools behaved in a similar fashion last Saturday ($8,272 and $981 resp).

OK, thats just a quick sample. But there is nothing to suggest that Odds/Evens has any hope of financing the Million Dollar race even allowing for some diversion from the normal Quinella betting (in which case, general industry income will be lower than normal Peter will have robbed Paul).

Like the awful Neds280s (results still unknown) it looks like another dud. The Minister will have to put his hand in his pocket again. The new Minister, that is.

To those who might say it is worth a try, I say nuts. This is a business decision requiring business nous which it failed to get. A small and generally ignorant greyhound customer mix was never going to magically launch into a peculiar new bet type. Small greyhound pools are already one of the codes biggest handicaps so, even if Odds/Evens succeeded itself, it was going to hurt the overall betting product.

On the other hand, getting rid of the ridiculous Duet can only help make things better. It has been a dud from the day it started.

Ian,

A bit more to add to my previous comments and to respond in part to other people.

TABCORP makes its money - and shareholders their dividends - by funnelling cash thru its front door. Every time that happens it whips off 5% or more and squirrels it away. So the more dollars (of any kind) that pass thru, the better it does. They don't mind where it comes from.

It has no real interest in the fortunes of racing, other than the above. Turnover is king. TABCORP can adopt that attitude because the state racing authorities sold off the sheep station to them several years ago. In effect, TABCORP can do whatever it likes.

Those racing authorities will never get to vote on bet types, even if they wanted to and regardless of any stories you might hear. But that does not mean they should never make a fuss if they think the code will suffer.

That suffering has been exacerbated by the rise and rise of corporate betting houses (which generally pay smaller commissions and have tougher rules) and thereby caused a reduction in TABCORP turnover (which generally pays higher commission to the code). In turn, that's why TAB dog pools are too small to use wisely. There has been little change in overall turnover - allowing for inflation - but it is being processed by different betting houses.

So "to professionalise the market and the customers", as you ask, TABCORP will do nothing unless it increases the flow of dollars. I think there are measures it could take (as well as state authorities) but it will not be bothered because it thinks the market is mature - and they are partly right.

TABCORP values the dogs because there are a lot of races - many more than the other codes - and their timing complements the big earners at the gallops as well as giving them better utilisation of both capital and staff (at TAB outlets, too). But that's as far as it goes.

Odds/Evens is no more than a desperate attempt to get blood out of the stone but it would be primarily directed at the big gallops meetings where more mugs are available to use it. The dogs just happened to be around at the same time.

So TABCORP will not care much what happens at the dogs - only dog people will do that, but not very well at the moment. The exception will be if race numbers start to decline and with it the flow of dollars at all times of the day and night. That might spark up interest.

In respect to another comment - it really does matter whether that dollar comes from a mug or a keen punter. One will blow away in the wind, the other will keep coming back. Your best customer is always the one that returns for more.