"Generally" NO!, Ryno.

To me trainers can only learn from data, maybe even improve the way they train, who knows, unless it's tried or even just considered.

Just a thought.

I know you referenced this to Bruce but for mine when you do form and have all this data in front of you, you can literally see when and why a dog is running really fast and some of the decisions trainers made in relation to placement(in my case), were dumbfounding especially since these animals mainly thrive with confidence. Some of trainers decisions to me were counterproductive to maintaining or even improving a dogs confidence.

I just couldn't understand why it looked like trainers were literally putting hurdles in front of their dogs rather than the opposite which was instilling confidence.

As I said when you have all the data, it makes you want to ask questions for no other reason but to understand some of a trainers reasoning behind decisions they make in relation to the dog.

In my experience trainers tend to take this as a personal attack on their techniques, when its really not.

You've lost me, Ryno.
You ask me if I would consider what Bruce was saying from a trainer's perspective.
Can you be specific as to what he said that will help me train more winners?

He has made a personal crusade on T Tears. Yet last Monday night there were 6 odds/on pops beaten at Grafton. Brucey never mentioned that? We receive Very selective info from him.

Yes Rhyno, there are bad trainers! Same as bad School Teachers, Police, Pollies, Plumbers, Parents, WRITERS!

Trainers own the dog, or train for a Syndicate, or private owners.
It's their decision to make on a Trainer, If they believe he's badly placing the dog. Or think he may be making counterproductive decisions. Same as your next door neighbours parenting skills! You may not agree with those!

Use all your Data, Form, skill & intuition to make the right decision, to back your own judgement ! (Best advice I can give you Rhyno)

About the vast amt of stayers not performing up to the same levels within 7 days after running over that 700m trip the previous week. I wld think most trainers wld find that interesting, not necessarily agreeing to it being correct. Flatly rejecting any deep analysis anyone provides only restricts your efforts to possibly become a better trainer, wld it not? At least what he's saying shld be considered.jmo.

At the risk of the grenades flying my way, I don't consider training winners shld be the goal of any trainer. Ideally trainers shld work towards training their dogs to run as fast as they can and keep them at that level consistently, the winners then wld flow as a result of those efforts. Helmets on now. lol.
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Because he's used to doing the work Terry, it can be quite addictive if you do it correctly. Bit hard to go cold turkey.lol

I also take your point how trainers place their dogs is none of anyone's business, I just find it interesting that trainers have no interest in even listening to how they may be able to do it better, especially from someone who may specialise in that area and can prove it by listing the data for example and coming up with a conclusion based on those results. The trainer can then make up their own mind if they wanted to try it or not. At least listen, it cant do any harm. pmsl.

btw I didn't say that there are bad trainers.

Ryno,
No Helmut required but your focus is all a bit mushy.

"Flatly rejecting any deep analysis anyone provides..."

I didn't say that and that wasn't the question.
Over the years I've taken tens of thousands of notes, researched thousands of subjects using data and brain picking people with experience.
And the research, data research, trial and error, experimentations, and problem solving continue to this day and will do until I get to the Pearly gates.

This reply will have to be in part ad I'm very busy.
But to be specific, please answer me this, Ryno...

I've got a dog that's won his heat of a $40,000 group staying race in fast time and is now fav for the final next week.
What do you suggest I do?
Because Bruce's data implies he might run flat, do I take the risk and run him OR scratch and wait 2 weeks then run him in a $4,000 race and have $10 on him at 2/1 on?
I'm not a big punter and my reliance to feed the children comes from p/money.
From a punters POV the latter might be a better proposition, but from a trainer's perspective?
That's the framework of time we have to work in.

So for this first part, how do I use Bruce's data to help me win the final, or alternatively, scratch the dog and try to justify it to the owners or myself, it's the best thing to do to maintain his strike rate...maybe?

Over to you.

Sometimes, there are variables that cant be completely controlled.

If only he could come up with some PHYSICAL helpful advise.

Does he think, he has discovered something alien to us trainers? In that Stayers need more than a 7 day break to perform at their optimum best.

He doesn't get replies, because he offers nothing new to ANYONE!
Why can't you see that?

I fear you are personalising the discussion when my intention was to point to what I see as an industry-wide shortcoming. For example, I have often quoted the late Bill Pearsons claim that, They arent as robust as they used to be.

Put another way, top stayers are few and far between. Many others are very good 600m/650m performers who manage to flop over the line in the 700s. You can argue whether that is due to breeding or training but the fact remains that almost none can run time or, at best, they can do it once and never repeat it.

Part of that context, and the evidence, pops up all the time when we find that most cannot repeat a distance run when asked 7 days later. A very few can, the majority cant. The Sydney Cup is just the latest of many.

Therefore, my suggestion is that heats and finals over a 7 day period should be banned. That is a welfare issue in part, but it also acknowledges the value to the public in seeing more consistency in distance races. And that is where industry income and your wages come from.

I realise that can pose problems for connections but it is no more than a question of where you put the priorities. There must be a variety of ways by which programmers or trainers can approach the existing heat/final pattern trainers of Melbourne Cup horses do it all the time

As to your $40k/$4k dilemma, I would have to assume that you know your dogs capabilities, particularly as a stayer would normally have career evidence of its ability to back up. If that does not stack up, dont nominate it.

Your point about relying on prize money is a simple reflection of the state of the art. What was once is no more. Real bookmakers are history, Tab pools are hopelessly small and the corporates with their 130% books and punitive conditions are just rip-offs. So making a killing in the ring is not on today. (Which is mostly why I stopped betting on dogs).

That armchair ride comment is neither sensible or helpful. Over the 2000s and 2010s I would have visited some 35 tracks in the five eastern states not for the ubiquitous roast and three veg but to walk the track and check out its peculiarities. (I make an exception for the excellent pasta and salads at Warrnambool).

In any event you have to move ahead, Michael. To do what I do (or did) 24/7 is infinitely more efficiently done from my office with all the videos, replays, programs and databases close at hand. Those are also the assets I used to write some 1,500 articles on greyhound racing (many still readily available). Besides, it is noteworthy how many folk go to the track and then do nothing but watch the TV monitors. They might as well have stayed at home. Of course, sometimes there is no choice (eg Cranbourne) but they still do it everywhere.

Kevin,

Mostly I agree.

Terry,

I understand the issue of blood costs on top of everything else. However, if you read carefully, you will find my broad intention was to call state authorities to account. They are basing welfare and racing decisions on incomplete data ie what are the implications of running a dog too often or over too long a trip?

I have no particular crusade going on about TT. What I have done is to point out the facts and offer some interpretations. After all this is the countrys leading stayer or was and tens of thousands of public money has gone down the drain on him. (NB TT has just trialled in 29.60 at Sandown but I have no idea what that will prove).

Your comment about odds-on favourites is moot. I have a horror at seeing continuing examples of these at all levels, indicating that fools are going in where angels fear to tread. More education is badly needed.

As for why explain because making greyhound racing secret mens business is a quick way to the poorhouse. The more that trainers let out, the better the industry will prosper.

And good to hear that you are opposed to 7 day back-ups. I assume you will be telling the PTB about that?

As for advice, I made two general comments about the MDC and said it was hard. I made two specific comments about the Sydney Cup - BRM being poor value and Boom Down being good odds at $4 (it actually started at $7 with TABCORP). What more do you want?

Ryan,

Thankyou.

Since when did you become concerned with the Public doing tens of thousands of dollars on the punt. They are consenting Adults Bruce!

And you have drained the life out of this TT episode.

So 6 beaten Odds/On fav's at one meeting is just moot? Yet TT is "Open & Fair Game" to you? (Selective Pickings Bruce).

Bruce, You have more info on dogs now, than EVER before.
Why don't you ask the PTB, to force Trainers to fill out a questionaire before kennelling.
You could ask what they ate for breakfast? How many slips, they may have had? How far each slip? any slight injuries? How were their droppings? Does the Trainer intend to back his dogs tonight? Is it well boxed? Can I help you with any more info? "Secret Mens Business" my a*se.

You have No Idea how difficult it is to train stayers! Once up, you must keep them at that level. A hard training act.

As for advice? Who asked for it? Boom Down was very lucky! IMO and you admit Good Value! Now there's a first.

Fair enuf Michael the word "Generally" before the NO gets you a pass this time. lol.

The way it was always explained to me when I got into the sport was that if you always put what's best for the dog first, then the dog in turn wld look after you. So it really depends on what the dog has shown you in it's previous runs which imo every trainer shld have analysed by someone who does form as well....if for nothing else but to consider their evaluation of those runs. You don't have to agree with their judgement, just need to consider what they've said.

I wld have thought that was part of being more professional in todays environment and the way fwd, but trainers seem to have a major issue grasping that concept. For me it's a must.

Terry Jordan wrote:

Rhyno: What do you think happens at the race track? Yes we trainers talk. I prefer the Physical hands on approach, as opposed to your mates method of analysing previous races. And picking selected holes in some performances. If only he could come up with some PHYSICAL helpful advise. Does he think, he has discovered something alien to us trainers? In that Stayers need more than a 7 day break to perform at their optimum best. He doesn't get replies, because he offers nothing new to ANYONE! Why can't you see that?

Terry, what you're then saying 'if trainers already know that' is that you agree with Bruce's analysis re dogs needing more than 7 days to recover. Then why are you arguing? Lol

As for picking holes, these dogs shld be open to scrutiny and put under the microscope. They race for so much prizemoney and people have the right to respectfully ask whatever they want......and that's exactly what's happening here.It shldn't be treated as anything sinister. Like AFL players who get the big bucks, everything they do is put under the microscope. That's just how it is today and they learn to live with it.

Physical hands on approach is fine, but wldn't both that and the data be even more beneficial ?

btw its gr8 to have both of you back. Cheers.

You are also nit/picking now. I ALSO stated we don't programme race dates.
Is Bruce FULLY aware of what you can give a dog in the 24hrs leading into a race? (I serious doubt it)
Dogs can't communicate with us, they also suffer travel sickness, stress, Hypertension, anxiety, cramping, anaemia, blinded with sand, intimidated by other dogs, neurological disorders etc. These are all part & parcel of training and racing Greyhounds.
They also remember where they have suffered an injury!

Not everyone is suited to training dogs. You have it or you don't.

We are put under the microscope Rhyno! That is why they employ Stewards. We are Swabbed now more than EVER! Have "Out of comp Swabs" including "Bloods".

We comply with the rules of racing. Or we cop fines or suspensions
"People have the right to respectfully ask whatever they want" And what happens when they don't get the Answer they want??

Yes if you need info/Data, You can look and search for it.
Is there anything else I can assist you with Rhyno? Iissy 8 no 8!

Ryno,

Thanks for the "Welcome back" but I have a feeling it will be short lived.
You know the feeling you get when you hear a song over and over and over aaand oveeer?
I 100% agree with you about doing the right thing by the dog and you will be rewarded. It's pretty much a given.
Having said that, there are a few in my kennel that I believe dont mind a free lunch sometimes.
Data can be helpful but it can also be unreliable when dealing with an individual dog that is not a machine.
I, like TJ, have found nothing from Bruce that has made me write down a note on the subject of how to maximize my strike rate...nothing.
I live in hope that one day that might happen...maybe the next life if he gets to understand the animal he punts on.
To give him some credit he has, on one hand, brought up good strategies of how to promote the industry, then with the other hand, denegrates the industry, dogs and trainers...counterproductive somewhat?

Now, you didn't answer my question...Would you start my hypothetical heat winning group staying dog in the final 7 days later?

Be honest and don't give me any of that Bruce Juice.

It's not as black/white as you blokes see it, as to what goes into assessing a dog's ability and future capability. As I said previously placement is huge key to them maintaining confidence. That's from my previous experience with doing form.

Sorry about the juice lol, but I gotta tell it as I see it.
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Good luck at Lissy Terry. Safe trip.

Being the intelligent person you are, Ryno, you would have figured those stats out even BEFORE the heat.

Nothing would stop you from being there, in top hat and tails!!!

BTW, you forgot to mention your consideration of a 7 day back up. :)

One thing you are spot on about is that Greys are not black and white which is why every dog in every race can win.
Examples of that smack you in the face every day.
It's also why using data only to pick winners is doomed to failure...as our mate Bruce found out.

If I make a final of a group race I'm there with bells on, whether I'm the fastest or not.
The ONLY consideration is the dog must be sound enough to run.

Hope we both make a final one day, my shout.