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Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 18 Nov 2019 12:26
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steven martin wrote:
... Now can anyone answer my question. How are we going to fix this dominance of 300/400m racing when breeding numbers are, and will remain massively below 2015 breeding levels?
Anyone????
It's pretty simple Steven, quality needs to be bred.
What's being looked at by latter day breeders simply isn't working as you've found in your opening post on the topic....iow it's not good enough to say things like Collision goes well with Kinloch Brae and put Kinloch over your Collision bitch without knowing the reason why that is the case. Breeders shldn't just rely on the statistic alone, the statistic shld be complimented with sound breeding principles and especially so in these times.
You've bred a top quality 500m to 600m+ conveyance in Gelantipy Gold, I'm sure you didn't just look at a statistic when you put that mating together, solid linebreeding principles were involved.
I've been saying it for a long time now, breeding is not just a nos game anymore with these restrictions and shld no longer be viewed as such, actually if it never was viewed as such, we may not be in the situation we are in now.
Breeders must get smarter and think more laterally about pedigrees, that's more obvious than ever if 500m racing in the industry is going to survive.
Simon Moore Australia (Verified User) Posts 2366 Dogs 32 / Races 393 18 Nov 2019 20:27
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steven martin wrote:
Graeme Beasley wrote:
Steve also needs to go back further than the 1970's to see that racing over staying distances was nothing more than a novelty. (Real) greyhounds are chasers before anything else and the majority of stayers have ALWAYS been bludgers.
That's why this topic is about 520m racing Graeme (not staying distance) because today's 520m races is fast becoming just what you have stated. Made up of mostly Bludgers.
Sandro Bechini wrote:
Steve
The way things are going 520m dogs will be the freaks of the breed
Exactly Sandro. I remember going to Wpk & Hpk in the late 70's, 80's and the race card would consist of 6 or 7 - 530/457m & 3 or 4 - 722/732m. It won't be long before we'll be seeing 3 or 4 - 515/520m & the rest 300/400m sprints. Hardly entertaining in my books.
Thx Bruce for posting on topic but as we're seeing now, the decline in breeding is bringing forth undesirable traits on TAB tracks that were only witness on the country circuit...usually race 15 to 20. But we don't have any other choice ATM if we want to fulfil TAB commitments, and the future at present doesn't look over exciting either I can tell ya.
Tom Rees wrote:
If distance prize money was increased you would see more trainers focus on this racing in lieu of the easy dollar to chance for luck and race twice a week over the 300s and 400s
If the majority of today's breed could run further than 420m, this would work...........but there no chance of that happening Tom.
Kevin Wright wrote:
Pay all dogs entered over 700 Meters $250 starters fee plus travel allowance .. 600M $200 500 $150
Not a bad suggestion Kev but IMO it would only help 520m racing slightly. 600m & 700m metre racing north or west of the place to be (Melbourne) is a basket-case.
Now can anyone answer my question. How are we going to fix this dominance of 300/400m racing when breeding numbers are, and will remain massively below 2015 breeding levels?
Anyone????
Anyone? I already did, lol
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 18 Nov 2019 21:39
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Steve
In 20 years time we will have predominantly straight tracks and distances of 200m-350m
Anti's will be calling for this so that dogs don't get hurt going around corners or getting stressed out by going any distance further than that
I guess they will be the REAL dogs racing then....because anything that happened in the past was actually UNREAL
Thank god I may not be around to see it
Our era definitely got the best of the sport
Ray Brown Australia (Team Member) Posts 6225 Dogs 8 / Races 5 18 Nov 2019 22:57
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Our era got the best of EVERYTHING Sandro, including life itself...we are the fortunate few that can still remember!
Jamie Quinlivian Australia (Verified User) Posts 8727 Dogs 10 / Races 0 18 Nov 2019 23:52
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
steven martin wrote:
... Now can anyone answer my question. How are we going to fix this dominance of 300/400m racing when breeding numbers are, and will remain massively below 2015 breeding levels?
Anyone????
It's pretty simple Steven, quality needs to be bred.
What's being looked at by latter day breeders simply isn't working as you've found in your opening post on the topic....iow it's not good enough to say things like Collision goes well with Kinloch Brae and put Kinloch over your Collision bitch without knowing the reason why that is the case. Breeders shldn't just rely on the statistic alone, the statistic shld be complimented with sound breeding principles and especially so in these times.
You've bred a top quality 500m to 600m+ conveyance in Gelantipy Gold, I'm sure you didn't just look at a statistic when you put that mating together, solid linebreeding principles were involved.
I've been saying it for a long time now, breeding is not just a nos game anymore with these restrictions and shld no longer be viewed as such, actually if it never was viewed as such, we may not be in the situation we are in now.
Breeders must get smarter and think more laterally about pedigrees, that's more obvious than ever if 500m racing in the industry is going to survive.
Unfortunately a lot of breeders are breeding to sell. So its mostly about getting the established sire if you can afford him, or the latest group 1 winner And a lot of buyers are looking for the exact same thing. I'm not sure how many breeders are breeding a litter to race? We are contemplating breeding 2 litters this year and both matings are targeting distance races. But I'm really starting to believe it might be an error. No point having strong 650m+ dogs when there are only 450m- races to enter......
Steve, I don't know of any statistics to back me up here, but I imagine waaaaaay back in your day......there was a list of highly respected breeders??? Then there would have been the guys who bred 2 itters every year to keep and race for themselves??? Whereas now it seems like anyone can get a breeders license and start selling litters. I know when I got booted out, Mrs.Q went online and got her breeders ticket in about 20 minutes.
So there's the answer mate. Increase breeding restrictions. Thank God the disagree button has been removed........
Andrew Varasdi Australia (Verified User) Posts 1287 Dogs 2 / Races 11 19 Nov 2019 00:03
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Why would it be. Bred and reared right no issues with dogs running 500m.
Still breeding or buying to get 500m dogs myself.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 19 Nov 2019 00:23
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The values of the sport in by gone days must be restored if the sport is to survive (not just 500m racing).
By that I mean, when I entered the sport in 1971 I was looked after by blokes who knew better. Today a newbie comes along and they fight over him, to take him for all he's got.
Everyone in the sport did their utmost to promote the sport and show newcomers the way.
Owners and owner breeders were looked after by trainers if their dogs were injured or no good. Trainers used to believe there was a place for every dog and find the owner a place for his dog if it wasn't good enough for that trainers kennel or if the owner cldn't find a place for the dog himself. A popular saying amongst trainers when I came into the sport was 'a dog doesn't leave my kennel in worse condition than which it came', and they were proud to say it.
..and people bred to sell in those days too Jamie, but they did it with a lot more know how in terms of what they thought was best for their brood bitch.
Everyone needs to get back to these core values if the game is to survive imo.
Charles W Mizzi Australia (Verified User) Posts 684 Dogs 1 / Races 1 19 Nov 2019 00:43
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
The values of the sport in by gone days must be restored if the sport is to survive (not just 500m racing).
By that I mean, when I entered the sport in 1971 I was looked after by blokes who knew better. Today a newbie comes along and they fight over him, to take him for all he's got.
Everyone in the sport did their utmost to promote the sport and show newcomers the way.
Owners and owner breeders were looked after by trainers if their dogs were injured or no good. Trainers used to believe there was a place for every dog and find the owner a place for his dog if it wasn't good enough for that trainers kennel or if the owner cldn't find a place for the dog himself. A popular saying amongst trainers when I came into the sport was 'a dog doesn't leave my kennel in worse condition than which it came', and they were proud to say it.
..and people bred to sell in those days too Jamie, but they did it with a lot more know how in terms of what they thought was best for their brood bitch.
Everyone needs to get back to these core values if the game is to survive imo.
Agree 100% Ryan. You know my history and I can say that's how it was. Not now sadly, to get a licence to train and to train for others is way to easy to get. This is only a small part of a problem that has been magnified by poor administration.
All admins focus on their own little patch with Greyhounds Australasia a rubber stamp between them all. The breeding challenge is a national collective one and in my opinion not being viewed that way. Off topic so I will end here.
Daryl Barrett Australia (Verified User) Posts 1739 Dogs 1 / Races 0 19 Nov 2019 03:01
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G'day Steve,mate,this has been a concern of mine for quite a few year's & i have brought this up a couple of time's regarding greyhound's racing over 500 and further,& you know what Steve/ Sandro,i don't think most trainer's don't care if their dog's race over 300-400mtrs,& i think there are a number of reason's,trial track closure's,increased prizemoney for 300-400mtr racing,lazy trai ing method's,lack of patience or simply people who couldn't " train a passion fruit vine up a trellis let alone greyhound's,but also the fact of racing over 300-400mtrs has really changed,now keeping 300-400mtr dog's IS profitable,but also,these greyhounds that once ended up in Asia back in the day,are now given more opportunity to race in Australia & have the chance to race up to 4-5 year's old, (because of the much needed reforms re welfare & re-homing of greyhounds)which is positive for the greyhound industry.Steve/Sandro,like you guy's 500-732m racing for me is the pinnacle,but guy's,this is greyhound racing & training post,the late sixties, 70's & 80's,& i doubt it will never return to those day's when greyhound racing was about racing over 500-732m. Cheers Steve.
Geoff Collins Australia (Verified User) Posts 2010 Dogs 291 / Races 30 19 Nov 2019 04:37
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The falloff in 500m dogs is a bi-product of the demise of distance racing
Distance racing generates bigger pools and higher turnover and there are less injuries associated with staying races its our best product on those two very important fronts and yet we neglect it
There are a number of issues that we need to address to ensure that distance racing (and 500m racing) stays a viable part of our industry
At current prize money levels, staying races are not as financially viable for owners and trainers as short course racing or even 500m racing. Not only do stayers race for similar prize money as short course dogs but trainers can race short course dogs twice a week.
It requires much less work to train short course dogs and a lot more time to get a staying dog up to its optimum distance. And the road there (via lead up races) is not ideal with fast surfaces and eight dog racing making it hard for dogs without early pace to compete, even though they may be the fastest dog in the race.
And due to that, breeders breed for early pace, which only makes things worse
Group distance races play second fiddle to shorter races ie: not many country distance cups much smaller prize money paid for group staying races. Staying races are not afforded the same standing/respect as 500m racing.
How do you counteract these problems ? simple .. PAY MORE for staying races .. make it viable !!
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 19 Nov 2019 04:57
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Geoff Collins wrote:
The falloff in 500m dogs is a bi-product of the demise of distance racing
Distance racing generates bigger pools and higher turnover and there are less injuries associated with staying races its our best product on those two very important fronts and yet we neglect it
There are a number of issues that we need to address to ensure that distance racing (and 500m racing) stays a viable part of our industry
At current prize money levels, staying races are not as financially viable for owners and trainers as short course racing or even 500m racing. Not only do stayers race for similar prize money as short course dogs but trainers can race short course dogs twice a week.
It requires much less work to train short course dogs and a lot more time to get a staying dog up to its optimum distance. And the road there (via lead up races) is not ideal with fast surfaces and eight dog racing making it hard for dogs without early pace to compete, even though they may be the fastest dog in the race.
And due to that, breeders breed for early pace, which only makes things worse
Group distance races play second fiddle to shorter races ie: not many country distance cups much smaller prize money paid for group staying races. Staying races are not afforded the same standing/respect as 500m racing.
How do you counteract these problems ? simple .. PAY MORE for staying races .. make it viable !!
Spot on Geoff. What ways or idea's do you think would work in the present climate to kick start this now ... IMO Paying each starter $500 per starter would go a long way to help encourage more heats finals over 700 ...
To me the simple fix is to pay for the product and make a huge impact within months or weeks....
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 19 Nov 2019 05:03
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Yes, in NSW we had better p/m until the recent increase and additional short course distances on TAB. The p/m increase across the spectrum was needed as we had been starved of it for about five years (except for some better monies as distance increased). Now its the same p/m for any distance while administration costs rise.
Simon Moore Australia (Verified User) Posts 2366 Dogs 32 / Races 393 19 Nov 2019 05:16
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simply paying starters fees for longer distance racing is not the way to go about it. u have to allocate the money to the winner and place getters, not just for whoever is in the race, otherwise u will get dogs that struggle to get even 500m nominated.
i had a dog who struggled to get 400m that i gave away and the new trainer put it in a 600m race straight away.
the dog was 5 lengths in front at the half way mark but by the end of the race it was 28 lengths behind the winner.
there r trainers out there who wouldn't hesitate to do the same if they got paid good money even if their dog came last.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 19 Nov 2019 05:19
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I agree....staying races or races @ 640m or more should be paid substantially higher than other races
In fact they should be double the prizemoney of < 450m races and 50% higher than 500m-600m races
Also field sizes for 450m+ racing should be reduced to 6 runners for staying types to develop their race craft and fitness
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 19 Nov 2019 05:24
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simon moore wrote:
simply paying starters fees for longer distance racing is not the way to go about it. u have to allocate the money to the winner and place getters, not just for whoever is in the race, otherwise u will get dogs that struggle to get even 500m nominated.
i had a dog who struggled to get 400m that i gave away and the new trainer put it in a 600m race straight away.
the dog was 5 lengths in front at the half way mark but by the end of the race it was 28 lengths behind the winner.
there r trainers out there who wouldn't hesitate to do the same if they got paid good money even if their dog came last.
That was just irresponsible by the trainer and the stewards & integrity officers should have been right on it
Geoff Collins Australia (Verified User) Posts 2010 Dogs 291 / Races 30 19 Nov 2019 05:55
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Kevin ... remembering that this is our best product and needs to be promoted as such ... my thoughts for Victorian racing are ..
Increase the financial rewards for staying dogs by looking at the following options: a) Increase the prize money for 1st to 3rd b) Pay 4th place for distance racing only c) Pay unplaced for distance racing only (5th to 8th)
Assess the 1 to 4 wins on distance events on either A) previous distance form or B) form in events over 500m
Develop a Country Staying Cup circuit .. heats and finals etc
Allow interstate dogs to race in distance races to increase the available pool
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 19 Nov 2019 06:18
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Geoff Collins wrote:
Kevin ... remembering that this is our best product and needs to be promoted as such ... my thoughts for Victorian racing are ..
Increase the financial rewards for staying dogs by looking at the following options: a) Increase the prize money for 1st to 3rd b) Pay 4th place for distance racing only c) Pay unplaced for distance racing only (5th to 8th)
Assess the 1 to 4 wins on distance events on either A) previous distance form or B) form in events over 500m
Develop a Country Staying Cup circuit .. heats and finals etc
Allow interstate dogs to race in distance races to increase the available pool
Seems to be a very easy solution that would get instant results ... Help promote country racing maybe by regions with a final at both the meadows and Sandown .....Paying all 700 meter starters would increase nomination within months ...
Breeders are always reluctant to breed with any dog who raced over 600 to 700 meters as you know Geoff so maybe the breeders should also be given a financial boost as well ....
Maybe the GRV will do a online survey Geoff who knows but u dont need to be Einstein to understand how this could be a simple quick fix
Andrew Varasdi Australia (Verified User) Posts 1287 Dogs 2 / Races 11 19 Nov 2019 06:35
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I personally do not believe in any of the suggestions around paying more for distance racing.
Some dogs run short some run far and some run middle.
This industry must cater for all. You simply dont know what you will get from a mating. The important thing is that every dog has a chance to pay their way as race dogs.
Prizemoney for genuine distance dogs is fine if that is what comes naturally to them. We dont need to force dogs into those distances if they cant get them. The incentives are already there with 5 and 6 dog fields a common occurrence.
Straight racing is a huge part of the future and numbers suggest that more dogs err on the side of short course than long course.
If there were any suggestions from Me. More straight racing up to 450m plus. They would be amazing with lures on both sides of the track.
More Horsham and Warragul tracks. And finally keep your two turn tracks for 500, 600 and 700m metres.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 19 Nov 2019 07:28
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andrew varasdi wrote:
I personally do not believe in any of the suggestions around paying more for distance racing.
Some dogs run short some run far and some run middle.
This industry must cater for all. You simply dont know what you will get from a mating. The important thing is that every dog has a chance to pay their way as race dogs.
Prizemoney for genuine distance dogs is fine if that is what comes naturally to them. We dont need to force dogs into those distances if they cant get them. The incentives are already there with 5 and 6 dog fields a common occurrence.
Straight racing is a huge part of the future and numbers suggest that more dogs err on the side of short course than long course.
If there were any suggestions from Me. More straight racing up to 450m plus. They would be amazing with lures on both sides of the track.
More Horsham and Warragul tracks. And finally keep your two turn tracks for 500, 600 and 700m metres.
Great idea Andrew so we do nothing ....we continue to support speedy squibs and we keep on making straight tracks with lures on both sides .....Maybe it was before your time Andrew but Healesville had a lure on the other side of its track it did not work it was stupid idea and i do not want to ever see that kind of thing again ..It messed up dogs minds made them run hard right ..
80% race over 450 and under 20% race over 500 to 700 ...get 20% of the 450 dogs to step up to 500 with a $250 starters fee .....
As you know years ago this was 80% raced over 500 and 20% raced over 450 and under .....
Under The control of John Stevens tracks were made for sprinters and there was never any consideration for the country area's to have 500 Meter feeder tracks built they were all build on the same design this crippled the 500 to 700 m breeder ..
All the Country area breeders breed for one thing SPEED early box speed and every Country track is a HORSESHOE design ...
You must entice the Country Trainers into town to race over 500
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 19 Nov 2019 08:32
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Kevin Wright wrote:
Under The control of John Stevens tracks were made for sprinters and there was never any consideration for the country area's to have 500 Meter feeder tracks built they were all build on the same design this crippled the 500 to 700 m breeder ..
I know one thing, Vic wldn't be in the sh1t we're in now if he were still there.
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