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535mt Races at Richmondpage  1 2 

Victor Ellul
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 64
Dogs 2 / Races 0

24 Jun 2020 05:56


 (0)
 (0)


Just wondering what people think about this weeks Richmond races.
33 races and only 3 are over 535mt? Lack of noms? Distance?
Your thoughts


Mark Wilcox
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 264
Dogs 1 / Races 0

24 Jun 2020 07:11


 (5)
 (0)


Victor the reason is the programming of the races on the grnsw calander dogs site for the month of june Richmond race 3 times a week and all they have programmed for the 535m is a 1/3 race a 535m masters race and a 1/2 race 3 races in the whole month that's why.As soon as equal prize money for all distances was put into play that was the start of less 500 racing .


Ray Webster
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 380
Dogs 72 / Races 27

24 Jun 2020 19:42


 (4)
 (0)


With equal prize money whatever distance you race, its attractive to go 300m / 400m twice a week at Richmond..sure beats the extra work required to get your dog to 535m and race once a week (if you get a start).


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

25 Jun 2020 00:01


 (4)
 (0)


Gillian,

You can take your pick but in my observation the rot set in when GBOTA took over Bulli a few years ago and immediately started encouraging 400m races rather than the 472m races which had long dominated the scene. Former local club manager Paul Barnes hated the 400s because in that era they attracted smaller pools than the longer races. That was at a time when there were still real punters around. In the same vein, who can remember when Bulli last had a distance race? The 590s are OK but thats about it.

Since then we have seen the steady progression of short course racing first by trainers selecting the shortest trip available at each track, then by adding former country tracks to the TAB list (Wagga, Dubbo, Goulbourn, Grafton, Taree), then by some clubs actually installing micro-distance boxes in the 270-340m category, then by GBOTA and GRNSW promoting 280m scampers at Wenty. One thing validated the other. It has been like a cancer.

The trend then degraded race quality as many of the short races start on a bend with enforced extra interference. Good punters would not be amused. Where they dont start on a bend you are limited to fast-beginning railers which have drawn well thereby disenfranchising a big percentage of the breed which lack those qualities.

Other states are much the same although Victoria has resisted in some ways by eliminating short races (except for Cranbourne) and requiring a minimum of 400m everywhere.

The root cause would be what Ray pointed out 330m etc pays the same as 535m. It is perfectly logical for trainers to select the short option for dogs that dont look like having a chance at the big time. Thats how to maximise the weekly wages. Over time, that then extends to breeding patterns and a general weakening of the breed.

The solution is simple: pay less for 300m and more for 500m and beyond. As a bonus you will eventually get more dogs offered up for 600/700m races. Put another way, the problem with weakening 700m fields is 300m racing.

(NB: When possibly the worlds biggest and wealthiest owner/breeder, Paul Wheeler, noted his army tending to fade over 450m and 500m, he quickly whacked in some foreign blood and all was well again).



Mark Wilcox
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 264
Dogs 1 / Races 0

25 Jun 2020 02:21


 (3)
 (0)


Well bruce the way it is going it will be had to get dogs ready for city racing soon there will be no more 500s and the easter egg will be run over 280m . I am not against short racing we have to have them dogs and we all do but 500m a lot of dogs need and to race at the highest level it is a must so I do agree the prize money must go up for the longer trip to attract the trainers back to longer racing.


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

25 Jun 2020 03:48


 (0)
 (0)


Gillian,

"Well bruce the way it is going it will be had to get dogs ready for city racing soon there will be no more 500s and the easter egg will be run over 280m"

Well, it's up to you guys. I can only try to forecast where it is going.

"I am not against short racing we have to have them dogs and we all do but 500m a lot of dogs need and to race at the highest level it is a must so I do agree the prize money must go up for the longer trip to attract the trainers back to longer racing."

I have several times suggested splitting up racing into Prime/450-500-plus and Other/Any Distance with massive differences in prize money - eg minimum $2,000 for 5th Grade in Prime and much less than $500 for Other. My guess is that would sort out the basics within 12 months but perhaps up to five years for breeding.

The barrier to such a change would be demoted clubs seeking to hang on to their goodies - ie thinking only about themselves. But the fix is to have authorities lower the boom and take no prisoners. In other words, to manage the industry properly.

In such a system, all classes get a go but the rewards differ. Hobbyists get to pay for their feeds, serious trainers make profits. Anyone is free to choose one or the other option. In fact, it might well enable the "Other" category to expand.

The do nothing option is awful. As you say, it would not stay still but degrade the whole industry and turn the Egg into rubbish.

Here's the way the system works ......

1. Clubs build tracks.
2. GRNSW allocates dates and prize money.
3. Trainers nominate.
4. Graders grade.
5. Customers bet.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Get any one wrong and the system breaks down - which is where we are now.



Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 19486
Dogs 15268 / Races 1856

25 Jun 2020 21:31


 (7)
 (0)


Bruce Teague wrote:

Gillian,

"Well bruce the way it is going it will be had to get dogs ready for city racing soon there will be no more 500s and the easter egg will be run over 280m"

Well, it's up to you guys. I can only try to forecast where it is going.

"I am not against short racing we have to have them dogs and we all do but 500m a lot of dogs need and to race at the highest level it is a must so I do agree the prize money must go up for the longer trip to attract the trainers back to longer racing."

I have several times suggested splitting up racing into Prime/450-500-plus and Other/Any Distance with massive differences in prize money - eg minimum $2,000 for 5th Grade in Prime and much less than $500 for Other. My guess is that would sort out the basics within 12 months but perhaps up to five years for breeding.

The barrier to such a change would be demoted clubs seeking to hang on to their goodies - ie thinking only about themselves. But the fix is to have authorities lower the boom and take no prisoners. In other words, to manage the industry properly.

In such a system, all classes get a go but the rewards differ. Hobbyists get to pay for their feeds, serious trainers make profits. Anyone is free to choose one or the other option. In fact, it might well enable the "Other" category to expand.

The do nothing option is awful. As you say, it would not stay still but degrade the whole industry and turn the Egg into rubbish.

Here's the way the system works ......

1. Clubs build tracks.
2. GRNSW allocates dates and prize money.
3. Trainers nominate.
4. Graders grade.
5. Customers bet.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Get any one wrong and the system breaks down - which is where we are now.

What you are suggesting will lead to excessive wastage as no one will want the 300m dogs anymore and they will be dumped and we will be back where we started

Its needs to be a finer balance than that

In my opinion, there needs to be differences in the prizemoney structure to allow for more prizemoney for longer distance dogs

Broadly speaking I would centre it around these minumum 1st prizemoney levels at all TAB tracks

250m-439m $1,000

440m-549m $2,000

550m -699m $2,500

700m+ $3,000

I would also have a grading system that rises sharply in the 250m-439m range that would then force trainers to try to improve a distance grade to go back to lower grade

If you want your dog to stick to sub 439m racing then still getting adequately compensated as you can race twice a week comfortably in those distances without trialling your dog, barring any injury issues

Introduction of straight tracks would also help in NSW as they are used pretty well in other States and would help to remove bend starts in sprints

Anyway thats my opinion, but I am sure the heads upstairs know better than me



Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

25 Jun 2020 22:42


 (0)
 (0)


Sandro,

In round terms we are saying much the same thing. However, "What you are suggesting will lead to excessive wastage as no one will want the 300m dogs anymore and they will be dumped and we will be back where we started" need not be so.

The very point of my Prime/Other differentiation is to make sure the 300m dogs do not get near a Prime track but that they are all, repeat all, offered the chance to race, albeit for lower prize money.

If that does not influence tougher training and better breeding then nothing will.

It's all a matter of fiddling with the arithmetic. Set up the principle and continue until the money runs out.

The missing elements are to (a) recognise there is a problem and (b) have the courage to implement a new program regardless of objections.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 19486
Dogs 15268 / Races 1856

25 Jun 2020 22:48


 (3)
 (0)


What you are suggesting goes to far.

You haven't thought about the consequences.

People are generally driven by the prize money subject to the dogs limitations.

You have to provide a source/level of prize money that makes it worth racing these dogs without sacrificing longer distance and higher grade dogs

Like I said, a fine balance




Phil Hall
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1320
Dogs 21 / Races 21

25 Jun 2020 23:08


 (1)
 (0)


they all cost the same to race


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 19486
Dogs 15268 / Races 1856

25 Jun 2020 23:49


 (4)
 (0)


No they don't, they don't all take the same time to train

Ask any top trainer


Phil Hall
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1320
Dogs 21 / Races 21

26 Jun 2020 00:00


 (0)
 (0)


Sandro Bechini wrote:

No they don't, they don't all take the same time to train

Ask any top trainer

disagree totally,, same cost buy rear, break in, get to the races. ive trained 300 to 500 mtr dogs the extra work is not much, the class of dog you take to the track could feel like more work


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

26 Jun 2020 00:48


 (0)
 (0)


And time = money.
Sandro Bechini wrote:

No they don't, they don't all take the same time to train

Ask any top trainer





Phil Hall
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1320
Dogs 21 / Races 21

26 Jun 2020 00:52


 (0)
 (0)


daryl barrett wrote:

And time = money.
Sandro Bechini wrote:

No they don't, they don't all take the same time to train

Ask any top trainer

most top trainers walk out back door trial time and money lol


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 19486
Dogs 15268 / Races 1856

26 Jun 2020 02:12


 (4)
 (0)


Sandro Bechini wrote:

No they don't, they don't all take the same time to train

Ask any top trainer

Direct words from a top 3 trainer in Victoria

"They may cost the same to feed but they don't cost the same to train"

They are obviously pretty successful at it

I think I will use my own experience and also take their advice on this matter



Valerie Glover
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 239
Dogs 2 / Races 0

26 Jun 2020 03:36


 (4)
 (0)


Most short course dogs once fit can race /back maybe 6/8 times per month{all going well,as we know that is the Question} try putting that many runs together for a hard chasing 500/600/700 dog,not only make a mug of yourself but 8 out 10 times would ruin the dog in one way or another, So yes we all agree you can't cut the prize money, by calculating the % compared to the distance, but as Sandro just said there could be a scale worked ,that slightly resembled some fairness to all, the game has to Help Breeders/Rearers/Trainers ,all need a help, Owners need facilities badly, to improve,all over the land,not one track could you say doesn't need help for facilities, dogs will continue to drop in numbers if some body does not act swiftly to start a turn around ?? Bob Glover


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

26 Jun 2020 04:45


 (0)
 (0)


Sandro i totally agree mate,but maybe we've been doing it wrong all these years,instead of investing more time,patience,working them,conditioning them,galloping,in preparation for 500,600 & 700 mtr races,we should have just trained 300m dogs that require the same effort,time & money....according to some.
Sandro,i wouldn't even bother to respond to nonsense like that type of " training " theory,but each to their own i guess,after all this is a forum.( A bit of the " she said,we said..something like that ? ).
Sandro Bechini wrote:

Sandro Bechini wrote:

No they don't, they don't all take the same time to train

Ask any top trainer

Direct words from a top 3 trainer in Victoria

"They may cost the same to feed but they don't cost the same to train"

They are obviously pretty successful at it

I think I will use my own experience and also take their advice on this matter






Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7681
Dogs 180 / Races 66

26 Jun 2020 09:19


 (3)
 (0)


Sandro Bechini wrote:

In my opinion, there needs to be differences in the prizemoney structure to allow for more prizemoney for longer distance dogs

Broadly speaking I would centre it around these minumum 1st prizemoney levels at all TAB tracks

250m-439m $1,000

440m-549m $2,000

550m -699m $2,500

700m+ $3,000

I would also have a grading system that rises sharply in the 250m-439m range that would then force trainers to try to improve a distance grade to go back to lower grade


Totally agree, Sandro.....especially regarding the sharp rising in grading under 440m. But what would you or I know? We've only been in the industry for 40+ plus years ---> EXTERNAL LINK



Glenn Hatton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4852
Dogs 92 / Races 98

26 Jun 2020 11:35


 (2)
 (0)


Sandro

Save your time & breath.

You know the truth anda few muppets are disagreeing...one in particular is a gibberer with no official affiliation with greyhound racing in NSW...this has been confirmed by GWIC.

Stop arguing & stick to your excellent promotion of staying races.

And by the way, thanks for your sponsorship at Nowra..... how many years now?
I wonder if Bruce & co have put their money where their mouth is?! For all their talk on telling us what the industry needs you would think theyd have a financial stake in the nsw industry....skin in the game....We all know the answer to that....enough said.



Mick Whyte
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1109
Dogs 23 / Races 3

26 Jun 2020 12:45


 (0)
 (0)


Sandro Bechini wrote:

Bruce Teague wrote:

Gillian,

"Well bruce the way it is going it will be had to get dogs ready for city racing soon there will be no more 500s and the easter egg will be run over 280m"

Well, it's up to you guys. I can only try to forecast where it is going.

"I am not against short racing we have to have them dogs and we all do but 500m a lot of dogs need and to race at the highest level it is a must so I do agree the prize money must go up for the longer trip to attract the trainers back to longer racing."

I have several times suggested splitting up racing into Prime/450-500-plus and Other/Any Distance with massive differences in prize money - eg minimum $2,000 for 5th Grade in Prime and much less than $500 for Other. My guess is that would sort out the basics within 12 months but perhaps up to five years for breeding.

The barrier to such a change would be demoted clubs seeking to hang on to their goodies - ie thinking only about themselves. But the fix is to have authorities lower the boom and take no prisoners. In other words, to manage the industry properly.

In such a system, all classes get a go but the rewards differ. Hobbyists get to pay for their feeds, serious trainers make profits. Anyone is free to choose one or the other option. In fact, it might well enable the "Other" category to expand.

The do nothing option is awful. As you say, it would not stay still but degrade the whole industry and turn the Egg into rubbish.

Here's the way the system works ......

1. Clubs build tracks.
2. GRNSW allocates dates and prize money.
3. Trainers nominate.
4. Graders grade.
5. Customers bet.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Get any one wrong and the system breaks down - which is where we are now.

What you are suggesting will lead to excessive wastage as no one will want the 300m dogs anymore and they will be dumped and we will be back where we started

Its needs to be a finer balance than that

In my opinion, there needs to be differences in the prizemoney structure to allow for more prizemoney for longer distance dogs

Broadly speaking I would centre it around these minumum 1st prizemoney levels at all TAB tracks

250m-439m $1,000

440m-549m $2,000

550m -699m $2,500

700m+ $3,000

I would also have a grading system that rises sharply in the 250m-439m range that would then force trainers to try to improve a distance grade to go back to lower grade

If you want your dog to stick to sub 439m racing then still getting adequately compensated as you can race twice a week comfortably in those distances without trialling your dog, barring any injury issues

Introduction of straight tracks would also help in NSW as they are used pretty well in other States and would help to remove bend starts in sprints

Anyway thats my opinion, but I am sure the heads upstairs know better than me

Spot on Sandro

posts 28page  1 2