There's that many flaws in some of the analogies that many a boat would be sunk before leaving the wharf!

I never realised some owners should be counting their lucky stars, owing such a debt of gratitude. I mean, aren't they so "lucky" to have so many would-be McDonald's/Thompson's/Dailly's/Bate's/Lagogiane's/Bretts/Zammit's at their disposal?

I'm fortunate that the Trainers I work with see our 'relationship' as partnership, with give and take both ways. I realise they've got the facilities, put in the long hours (early mornings, late nights, many Kim's) etc; while they understand the tens of thousands of dollars that have gone in prior to them getting the opportunity to earn BOTH parties a quid.

Sometimes the best way to understand an issue is to try to see things as if the boot was on the other foot. Sage advice I reckon on this topic, that's for sure.

How many trainers have been caught out by owners not keeping up their ends of deals.
Rearing costs training costs excetera,just hoping and having faith in the owner to keep up their obligations.
Anthony I am sure over the years you've heard of this happening,nice that your guys are looked after.
Loyalty is as they say a two way street

I can take up fishing, spend $ 20 000 on a boat endless money on rods, reels , lures $ 150 for fuel every weekend and knowing full well I will never make any money. Every business I purchase from will profit from my hobby but still I'm happy because we're doing what we love.

The fisherman can shop around for cheap prices and the best deals on his gear but he also wants to ensure he gets quality as he doesn't want to be the one telling stories of the one that got away.

I think we need to make sure we are aware of all up keep expenses prior to a purchase and follow the old rule of thumb. If you can't afford the fuel most times you can't afford the boat...

Paul this is not a shot at you it's just my perspective from a hobby point of view..

Steve, what the deals used to be (here in Vic anyway), was as soon as the dog was taken by the trainer he wld ask you did you want 50/50 or pay say $70 - $80 p/w(on todays rates) and trainer take between 25%(min) - 33%(max) prizemoney and there was no pre training involved in those days. Trainer did it all.

Vet bills(not muscleman), were covered by the owner.

Now these deals were good enough for the best trainers in Vic. What owners don't understand is why they aren't good enough now.

What is v/hard to swallow from an owners perspective is why shld an owner pay 50% of prizemoney plus $$ on top of that ? The perception is owning the dog has no purpose anymore as the trainer is getting more than 50% of a dog he doesn't own.

No one is saying owners don't want to pay money, they wld be happy to pay a weekly fee for a lesser % (someone suggested 30% before in this topic), however what they are saying is they don't want a deal of 50/50 and have to pay a fee and I think they are saying it because they feel like they don't own the majority of the dog anymore.

Owners perceive a 50/50 deal as sharing the costs, ie., 50% for him 50% for me.

And that's understandable.

Its not about money its about watching your pup grow up, spending time with the dog. Watching its first trials, if you are lucky it will make it to the track and you can watch it race, if you are VERY lucky it may win a race.

You cant expect to make money from dogs, but you can expect to spend money on them, its got to be for enjoyment first and foremost or else you will more often than not be dissapointed.

In reference to fees.....if the dogs paying its way 50/50 should be offered. If its not then the owner needs to pay for its upkeep, more often that not if a trainer takes a dog on 50/50 they will let you know that its not paying its way and you either have to pay training fees or move it on to someone else.

Trainers have to make money to pay rent bills etc or else they wont be in the game for long, that's just the way it is, and if you want a wide range of trainers to choose from they have to be financially viable to succeed.

If you as the owner wouldn't take your own dog on 50/50 you cant expect anyone else too imo, if you would and your current trainer wont then shop around, there are many trainers out there, anyway that's the way I think about it.

Thing is some owners don't realise when they only have average/slow dogs, they expect the trainer to take all the risk and feed the dog out of their own pockets while owner doesn't pay anything and sits back waiting for that win with their hand out.

But yes it is a two way street, owners and trainers both have to reach a mutual understanding and negotiate a good deal for both of them.

Remembering the words of a top line trainer " a dog only has about a 100 runs behind the lure in him "

Just trying to understand why a trainer insists you get a pre trainer and then when he (trainer) decides the dog is good enough to take on after say up to 20 runs pre training, will put in another 8 - 10 weeks of work into to the dog again before he has his 1st start.

To my lack of training expertise, that's just a duplication of work and unnecessary usage of those '100 runs behind a lure' with the sole purpose of the exercise being to gain the trainers confidence to accept the dog. At the end of the day the trainer too has his own routine to go through.

Would it be acceptable for a trainer to take a dog say after 5 weeks of pre training and a half a dozen 300m runs behind a lure to gain a trainers confidence and he then begin to get the dog fit in the following 8 - 10 weeks (barring injury of course)for the sole purpose of cutting down the number of runs a dog has behind the lure before his 1st start ?

You may have missed that I am VERY happy with the current Trainers I have. We agree on an overall "plan" that suits most scenarios, but we (owner and trainer/s) are both willing to vary things a little bit one way or another, should circumstances permit.

As someone else pointed out earlier, does it not strike you as somewhat strange that NSW "Trainers" seem to think it's their God-given "right" to charge fees, yet others in other jurisdictions DON'T have that as their "base rule"? Is the water dearer or better down there? Are the NSW brigade that much more skilled at their craft? Is there something I'm missing???

FWIW, I pay for several week's pre-training with almost all my dogs. BUT I draw the line (usually at about 6 - 8 weeks) as to where my trainers "make the call" on whether the dog is likely to suit THEM on a deal (generally 50-50%). Seems fair to me? Importantly - to the best of my knowledge - my Trainers are happy with the opportunities I provide them, and likewise, me with them. Amiable and amicable discussions can do wonders.

But hey, thanks for the "critique" anyway :-)

Oh, just one more thing: Where do you think Trainers (I mean, full-time ones that DON'T put their hands in their pockets to buy or breed their own dogs) get their dogs from? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "moaners" ;-)

You can look those things up on Fastrack if you are interested John.

Trainer History

To
DARREN MCDONALD (DEVON MEADOWS) * 17/10/2013
Jennifer Maitland (Llandilo) 30/07/2013 17/10/2013

John what do you actually think the difference in detail between yourself and G.Bate as a trainer is ?

John hasn't had any positives?

I was asking because John states there are plenty of trainers with Bates ability without the opportunity and he may well be correct, so it stands to reason John may actually know in detail what makes a G.Bate a great trainer and these others as well as possibly he may have acquired these qualities too, and why owners shld pay these other guys more than Bate so as they may get that opportunity.

John McAlister wrote:

.............Nice one AJ you know there is potential Darren Macs and Dailly's Even Bates you name it out there they just need similar opportunities to get the right dogs.I have always said it,s the ability of the dog that helps make these trainers and it's only because they do things differently at times than do the average.........

It wld be handy to know what exactly to look for. What "things" specifically do they do differently ?

I have rated plenty of Bates dogs and I wld say there were no more than 8 trainers in Melb at a similar level to him in how I wld classify them as a top trainer, but the young up and comers I may miss because I only look at Melb city and Wenty form and that's my fault for sure.

So I'm just trying to gain some of John's years of experience at spotting these talents specifically.

Sorry I shld have explained myself better.