True enough, but the first of those WP races was won in an average 42.36 with the remaining five runners unable to get under 43.21, including the favourite.

The second 720m was won in a pedestrian 42.79, just in front of a 42.81 dog, with remainder unable to break 43 sec.

The Wenty meeting on Friday contained four x 280m races. The previous Saturday contained two more.

All up, each of those squibs' races absorbed 6 to 10 grand-plus of NSW funds. To achieve what?

The Newcastle Cup on Friday contained all the usual suspects and was won nicely by Just Terms, always a solid finisher, in a handy 41.75. The rest of the meeting was made up of nine x 400m races.

Moving along, the Saturday Newcastle meeting contained six x 400m and three x 272m races. Hard to get keen?

I agree that reform will not happen overnight - more like five years or so - but first someone has to start the ball rolling. That is yet to happen, but Kevin is offering some hints.

RE "If the PTB build speed tracks to suit 300 meter dogs then what happens to the Two turn tracks do we pull them all down and sell the land to make STRAIGHT tracks all over Australia."

Not at all. First, delete everything below 400m. Second, re-model any relevant two-turn tracks so that a 400m start is constructed out beyond the back straight. (NB: UTS drew up such an option as a proposal for the Tweed Heads track - replacing the old bend start 520m). Third, adjust prize money as you propose, with extra emphasis on the breeder.

A saver: many learned people have told me 350m/370m straight track racing is good for building up stamina as well as for other reasons. I see nothing wrong with such a policy and generally support some straight track racing. But I can't see the value in 300m races.

Bruce

At this time it doesn't really interest me what times they run

Many stayers start off running much slower times than later in their career due to many variables, fitness, learning to pace themselves for the race and maturity as they age etc

What interests me is that the trainers are willing to chance their dogs over the longer distances and develop them upwards

And that goes for past 450m and above as well, because all I see is a proliferation of sub-400m races on every program

And as you say, more and more creeping into the main city programs

At the same time if a dog can't definitely run a yard past 400m without doing itself harm then races are needed for those dogs as well

Kev's on the right track, the dogs need greater development in the 18month-30month of their racing careers, therefore support with grading and prizemoney is required to incentivize trainers to develop the dogs to their full potential

I just lose interest when I see 280m-350m races programmed, ad infinitum

To me it is stupid placing a strong slow mid race dog over 300 to 400 so that it gets thumped and battered around each week to gain experience this will do nothing but make your dog go sour .....
Sandro
I seen a very nice young bitch go around Wentworth park the other night running 4th over 720 i think its 19 months old so there is a need to help us nurture these style of dogs and bitches .

If all trainers knew that each week a different tracks hosts ..0-2 for 600 to 700 racing people would enter dogs but looking at my calendar i am hoping for a 0-4 win at the meadows over 720 on the 1st of Jan so i have a long wait .....I hope i gain a start but the chances are i will miss out on this race as well ...so you have to go after races 0-6 and this alone has huge drawbacks and does not help nurture a young dog or bitch hence they loose confidence .

Also the biggest problem is no one wants to trial over 500 let alone 600 or 700 its impossible to make a field up for experience so many times your dog has to trial alone and this does not help with field experience ..

I understand the principle of picking the right time to move a dog up in distance - that's down to the skill of the trainer. However, there also needs to be an incentive and nothing influences a trainer more than cash. (Me too).

But if "it doesn't really interest me what times they run" how else do you make a judgement? As a matter of interest, we mentioned recent WP times but the same poor time brackets apply to recent 5th grades in Melbourne. Adelaide is even worse.

And I think it would be rare to find a stayer that actually improves on its times as it matures - eg TT ran its best SPK time at its first distance attempt in April 2014 in its 13th overall start. In recent months it has just got slower, including in the Bold Trease. But I agree there are many factors in play.

As for a dog "doing itself harm" when pushed beyond 400m - that is another matter for the trainer to assess beforehand but, also, it is critical to the point I have been making about stayers' 7-day backups. The principle is the same.

Essentially, we are all saying much the same thing - "Kev's on the right track, the dogs need greater development in the 18month-30month of their racing careers, therefore support with grading and prizemoney is required to incentivize trainers to develop the dogs to their full potential".

But it is not happening, is it? How do we fix that?

I hark back to a time a few years ago when I wrote a number of times in favour of more Veterans races. I even suggested that they be made mandatory at each club on at least a monthly basis. At that time I talked to two prominent club bosses who said the same thing - more or less that "the dogs have lost interest by that time". Very negative. Yet, with regular pressure, these races are popping up everywhere now, sometimes at major meetings (Brisbane in particular).

So change is possible.

Let's bear in mind that any success in changes to 700m racing will also bleed off to 500m competitiveness - where all the big money is but also where hundreds of dogs can be seen fading on a daily basis.

Haha more sub 400m racing.....terrific!!

May be you should be in charge of programming and grading Gillian

You would do a far better job

Wenty Friday and Saturday? Joke

Bulli up against Wenty on Saturday night? Joke..

Maybe Maitland should be reprogrammed to Saturday night or Sunday lunch and move Bulli to Wednesday night

Move Wenty to Thursday night up against Dapto... or move Dapto to Saturday night.

SA don't race below 388m now...they got rid of Strathalbyn

Melbourrne doesn't seem to have any problems filling up fields for 390m races

That's because they mainly don't tolerate races below that distance

Apart from the straight track there is only one track that entertains them and that's Cranbourne

That's why the Vics dominate the sport...

NSW is becoming the 'Nanny State' of Greyhound Racing

PS for once I have to agree with Bruce....Sub 400m distances should be phased out not encouraged or tolerated

Gillian,

In the days when I used to keep track of takings night by night (and Tabcorp actually published them) Paul Barnes would never program a 400 at Bulli unless he was really desperate. Reason - 472 and beyond attracted more turnover.

The minute GBOTA took over the 400s appeared everywhere. It's gone downhill ever since - flat out getting 10 races in many weeks.

The lesson is that good, aggressive management can work wonders. Those who just sit back and take orders will never prosper.

EXTERNAL LINK

Important part
Quote,
Improving stayer Winlock Ramirez, just 27 months old, indicated she has a future over long distances with a runaway 13 lengths win in Saturday's 720m event.

Trained at Molong by Kaleb Weekes, Winlock Ramirez took the lead at the first turn and covered the distance in the handy time of 42.36.

Weekes' father Gus, who handled Winlock Ramirez, said: "We expected her to get close to the 42.30 mark tonight and think she can go a bit quicker.

"Tonight's race was her first over 720m in more than a month and Kaleb has not been able to do a lot with her, because she had a false season and had to be scratched from a recent race, which interrupted her training.'' End Quote

I must say i was extremely happy with my girls run home time compared to the 600 times .
The problem i have now is trying to find any suitable race without out-grading her in the process ..

My only option is a 0-4 or a 0-6 wins ...There is about 4 only 700 m races a month in Victoria supporting young or up and coming Stayers ...

I am not the only person in the same boat .....

By Me
"True enough, but the first of those WP races was won in an average 42.36 with the remaining five runners unable to get under 43.21, including the favourite".

By GRNSW
Improving stayer Winlock Ramirez, just 27 months old, indicated she has a future over long distances with a runaway 13 lengths win in Saturday's 720m event.

I am not sure what GRNSW (in the Good News Bible) or anyone else wants to prove but one swallow does not make a summer. The Winlock bitch may well go onto better things, or it may not. Time will tell.

Meantime, my general comment to Sandro suggested that in an overall sense the staying complement is pretty ordinary these days. Even the Bold Trease competitors - ie the best in the country - cannot run hot time. The heats were all won around the 41.70 to 42.10 bracket and the final in only 41.85, which was a little slower than some heat winners. (Record is 41.17 by Miata while TT has run 41.20 in the past). For those not fussed about times this may not matter. For the breed as a whole I think it does.

Big race winners are never mugs but there is a world of difference between really top class and just good dogs that earn a nice wage.

Barcali had an average hit rate and failed at its last 16 runs. Its Bold Trease time was actually way slower than three previous runs at the same track - eg one was in the BT heat (41.63) 7 days earlier.

Bourbski Fever had a very poor hit rate for a dog with such a victory in its pocket - 7 of 32. It also failed over its next nine runs after the BT.

Its A Bird won a few useful races but did nothing spectacular and failed at 11 of its last 12 starts.

Fanta Bale was a terrific racer but, to my mind, was a brilliant 650m dog who had enough guts to hang on for a further 70m. It never really ran hot time anywhere over the 700s but was opposed only by an average complement of so-called stayers. (Relatively, its Albion performances were probably its best but that 710m is certainly the easiest distance race in the country).

TT we know about - now a shadow of its former self - for whatever reason I don't know. And nobody will mention that three finalists ran faster time in their heats than TT did in the final.

Indeed, that's my point - a broad decline over several years in top ranking stayers , or even consistent stayers, plus the perennial doubt over which one could repeat its form in the usual heat/final series over 7 days. Answer, almost none. Even Fanta Bale won its BT in 41.98 after recording 41.78 in its heat.

But I am more concerned about the larger group behind these dogs. Plus all their mates that are running out of puff on the home turn in the 500s. They are all coming from the same sources.

You are entitled to be worried about what's in your kennel today. I am addressing where we are likely to be in five or ten years time. Unfortunately, that involves stuff like breeding, training and prize money - over which I have to rely on other people's knowledge and experience to supply possible answers.

But, first, they have to want to do that.

Are wins more important than times? In some cases, perhaps. But lets look at Tornado Tears the best we have had for a few years now verging on 4 years of age, no stud career in the offing but a wonderful 58% hit rate over all tracks and distances.

Phase 1: Its first 13 starts were all over sub-700m trips where it won 5 of 12 or 42%. That was its learning curve, which led off in NSW.

Phase 2: Starting off with a brilliant distance win at Sandown in April 2018, it won 19 of its next 23 starts in four states, or 82%. That finished with the split pad saga at Wenty in April 2019. All its really smart times are concentrated in this period.

Phase 3: Now 38 months to 46 months old, still working in three states, TT won 8 of 18 starts, or 44%, but all except two were in just average times.

TTs losses all occurred when it could not lead either early or mid-race a couple in Phase 2 but mostly in Phase 3. In parallel, its race times declined regularly in Phase 3. One element was consistent with the other. NSW stewards were not happy with what it did or failed to do - in the Association Cup final.

I suppose there are always age and travel demands, as well as the split pad, to consider. Or niggles or aging muscles. But my theory, and it is a wild guess, is that the dog was sufficiently intelligent and experienced to wake up to the fact that there were no great rewards at the end of the line. That is, nothing sufficient to justify going flat chat every time it went to the boxes. If it had the bunny, well fine, but if not well just have another gallop and wait for the ice cream later on. Indeed, that was exactly what it did when running second to Blazing Cartier at Geelong over 680m at its last start (6 Dec). It had every opportunity to get closer but didnt.

My point is that times can tell you a lot. Not everything, but usually more than you need. Its as good a way to begin as anything.

As for the Sale Cup heat next Friday, the Watchdog has some odd points to make. TT has never raced there but Watchdog says it will lead (on sectionals) but needs luck mid-race. I doubt the former but agree with the latter. It is not great value at $1.90. The Watchdog picks the country NSW dog, Dont Mind Me, to win but prices it at $7.50, with TT second. Hard to add all that up.

Phase 1 - should read first 12 starts, not 13.

You regularly ask for more proof, and more proof, and more proof, of the difficulties some stayers have with short back-ups. Here is some more info I wrote related to the 2016 Sandown Cup. (Courtesy ARG).

Revealing the Sandown Cup facts

Three distance races were run on Cup night the Cup, a Listed race and a 4/5th Grade. The 24 runners had all competed in Cup heats a week earlier. Below is a comparison of the times they ran in the two events.

Sandown Cup
1. Who Dey 2.7 lengths
2. Dublin Bull + 2.6 lengths
3. No Donuts + 13.0 lengths
4. Wind Whistler + 4 .0 lengths
5. Bells are Ringin 4.1 lengths
6. Luna Jinx + 5.4 lengths
7. Zipping Kane + 5.8 lengths
8. Kilkee Flex + 3.9 lengths

Listed Cup Night Stayers
1. Mepunga Rosie + 0.4 lengths
2. Dr Leonardo + 0.9 lengths
3. Gunmetal Rebel + 14.1 lengths
4. Brazen Bomber + 8.4 lengths
5. Beks 2.9 lengths
6. Rynos Raider 3.4 lengths
7. Esparza + 1.9 lengths
8. Ring The Bell + 5.0 lengths

4/5th Grade
1. Springvale Bryne 1.0 lengths
2. Tambay Bale 1.8 lengths
3. Alpha David + 10.1 lengths
4. Aston Harvey + 8.8 lengths
5. Jaimandy Hatty + 2.8 lengths
6. Lektra Kelly + 2.4 lengths
7. Fantastic Tail + 5.4 lengths
8. Tricky Mover + 7.4 lengths

So six runners actually improved their times, including the three winners, mostly due to better boxes or comparisons with very slow runs in the heats. But 18 dogs, or 75% of the total, did worse. That is consistent with all the other studies I have done over recent years.

Conclusions

1. Most dogs cannot handle two distance races in seven days. The fact that a minority can do it is no excuse for chancing the arm in a vain hope of winning some prize money.

2. As well as running welfare risks, the practice will mislead punters.

3. Computer grading programs should be adjusted to prevent the practice.

4. Clubs should change their race programming.

5. Racing authorities should initiate studies to better determine the impact of racing more often or over longer trips.

6. They should also examine any longer term effects.

You may want to revise your conclusions to not lose face.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story