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Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 04:35
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Sandro,
It was not missed at all. You failed to check.
I pointed out that True Detective was a victim of unfamiliarity with the BGC710m in its heat - particularly the first turn near the 600m boxes - and therefore ran moderate time. It ran all over the track, thereby increasing its elapsed time.
In any event, its final winning time was still barely average and slower than two other dogs ran in the heats. My guess is that the 700s are a fraction beyond its best distance but it may prove me wrong.
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 04:54
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Graham Moscow wrote:
Ok Fellas stay calm hold fire, historically Sandro youre spot on, its ok Moscow not buying himself a straight jacket. What Bruce & co are trying to achieve they will need NASA help. Hopefully Bruce will oblige my request. So stay calm and wait please
Graham,
Actually, Sandro is not spot on at all. He is mixing water and oil.
My basic suggestion is that Racing Rules should be adjusted to prevent stayers racing more than once in 14 days.
This has absolutely nothing to do with form programs or mathematics as such. It has everything to do with achieving more reliable, more predictable and fairer race outcomes or even avoiding over-stressing dogs and putting them in danger. (One commentator on this thread has even posed such a threat for a 400m dog moving up to 500m so it is not a fairy story).
The principle is already recognised by the ban on racing on successive days. I would extend that.
Tony Gallagher Australia (Team Member) Posts 5908 Dogs 12949 / Races 40209 22 Jan 2020 04:57
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The bottom line: All dogs are different and it is the trainers job to find the key to each dog.
Mathematics or stats cannot allow for this.
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 04:58
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Apologies - Michael should read Mark.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 22 Jan 2020 05:17
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Graham Moscow wrote:
Ok Fellas stay calm hold fire, historically Sandro youre spot on, its ok Moscow not buying himself a straight jacket. What Bruce & co are trying to achieve they will need NASA help. Hopefully Bruce will oblige my request. So stay calm and wait please
Graham,
Actually, Sandro is not spot on at all. He is mixing water and oil.
My basic suggestion is that Racing Rules should be adjusted to prevent stayers racing more than once in 14 days.
This has absolutely nothing to do with form programs or mathematics as such. It has everything to do with achieving more reliable, more predictable and fairer race outcomes or even avoiding over-stressing dogs and putting them in danger. (One commentator on this thread has even posed such a threat for a 400m dog moving up to 500m so it is not a fairy story).
The principle is already recognised by the ban on racing on successive days. I would extend that.
I am spot on. You are wrong, the rest of us are correct.
Your suggestion will never happen because it is unfounded
I went back and checked the Sydney Cup results held over 720m for the last 18 years
I only judged the final winners that also won their heat - this is the fair way to do it because ''in most cases'' they would have been either free of interference in both heat and final or be able to run their usual race in both heat and final to give their maximum performance
2019 Boom Down 42.00 F 42.07 H 2018 Poco Dorado 41.68 F 42.25 H 2017 Fanta Bale 42.41 F 42.46 H 2015 Ada Mary 42.34 F 42.43 H 2012 Bell Haven 42.25 F 42.71 H 2010 Nana Cook 42.38 F 42.11 H 2009 Amity Bale 42.41 F 42.19 H 2002 Westend Prince 42.61F 42.71 H 2001 Pearl Larriki 42.70 F 42.80 H
Therefore, after a 7 day back up, out of 9 Final winners who also won their Heat, 7 of them improved their time and only 2 didn't being Amity Bale and Nana Cook
Mathematically speaking, 77.77% improved their time
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 06:36
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Somebody is either right or wrong, so pleased no anger or venom expressed in posts just facts. Historically Sandros spot on so his word / post good enough for Graham. Graham gave up checking Sandro facts many moons ago. Your move Bruce do keep it sweet please. Just facts please. Thank you
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5956 Dogs 8 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 07:46
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If you look at the last case he posted and watched the 2015 Sandown Cup and the Vic National Dist Ht at the Meadows 3 months later, no analyst wld be using that dog to prove this point. if you do the outcome is bias. It shldnt just be about extracting figs if you want to make a proper case. Tony is correct.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 22 Jan 2020 07:59
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Graham Moscow wrote:
Somebody is either right or wrong, so pleased no anger or venom expressed in posts just facts. Historically Sandros spot on so his word / post good enough for Graham. Graham gave up checking Sandro facts many moons ago. Your move Bruce do keep it sweet please. Just facts please. Thank you
Ten gods cannot change the opinion of one fool, especially if another fool agrees with him.
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 22 Jan 2020 09:18
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Mark Donohue wrote:
Surely you have better figures than the ones you have quoted, to prove your argument?
Here you go, Mark.
The following is a similar list to the previous examples Bruce has used, but the difference is my list has been compiled from all Group Staying Races all over Australia for the last 10 years.
My list is made up of EVERY, I repeat EVERY greyhound that has Won a heat and then gone on to win that Final between the years of 2010 & 2019......same argument as Bruce, just on a larger scale.
The list has not been "Cherry-Picked". It's "Fact" and all the results can be checked should somebody choose to do so.
Time Plac Dist Name of Race .. H/F... Date ...Track.... ......... Winner 41.97 1st 715m Newcastle Cup Ht 6/12/2019 The Gardens Just Terms 41.75 1st 715m Newcastle Cup Fnl 13/12/2019 The Gardens Just Terms 42.10 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 22/11/2019 Sandown Park Tornado Tears 41.85 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 29/11/2019 Sandown Park Tornado Tears 42.07 1st 720m Sydney Cup Ht 11/10/2019 Wentworth Park Boom Down 42.00 1st 720m Sydney Cup Fnl 18/10/2019 Wentworth Park Boom Down 43.00 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Ht 21/09/2019 The Meadows She Will Bloom 42.57 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Fnl 28/09/2019 The Meadows She Will Bloom 42.61 1st 725m The Fireball Ht 20/07/2019 The Meadows Tornado Tears 42.20 1st 725m The Fireball Fnl 27/07/2019 The Meadows Tornado Tears 41.47 1st 710m Gold Cup Ht 13/06/2019 Albion Park Bago Bye Bye 41.80 1st 710m Gold Cup Fnl 20/06/2019 Albion Park Bago Bye Bye 41.99 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 16/05/2019 Sandown Park Rajasthan 41.90 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 24/05/2019 Sandown Park Rajasthan 42.09 1st 715m The Miata Ht 26/01/2019 Cannington Park Moment To Jive 41.92 1st 715m The Miata Fnl 2/02/2019 Cannington Park Moment To Jive 41.75 1st 720m Summer Cup Ht 1/12/2018 Wentworth Park Poco Dorado 41.77 1st 720m Summer Cup Fnl 8/12/2018 Wentworth Park Poco Dorado 41.63 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 16/11/2018 Sandown Park Barcali 42.01 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 23/11/2018 Sandown Park Barcali 42.25 1st 720m Sydney Cup Ht 12/10/2018 Wentworth Park Poco Dorado 41.68 1st 720m Sydney Cup Fnl 20/10/2018 Wentworth Park Poco Dorado 41.30 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 17/05/2018 Sandown Park Tornado Tears 41.60 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 24/05/2018 Sandown Park Tornado Tears 41.70 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 14/04/2018 Cannington Park Rippin Sam 41.70 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 21/04/2018 Cannington Park Rippin Sam 42.42 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 24/02/2018 The Meadows Fanta Bale 42.63 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 3/03/2018 The Meadows Fanta Bale 42.62 1st 720m Summer Plate Ht 13/01/2018 Wentworth Park Fanta Bale 42.25 1st 720m Summer Plate Fnl 20/01/2018 Wentworth Park Fanta Bale 41.78 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 17/11/2017 Sandown Park Fanta Bale 41.98 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 24/11/2017 Sandown Park Fanta Bale 42.46 1st 720m Sydney Cup Ht 7/10/2017 Wentworth Park Fanta Bale 42.41 1st 720m Sydney Cup Fnl 14/10/2017 Wentworth Park Fanta Bale 42.41 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Ht 23/09/2017 The Meadows Fanta Bale 42.54 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Fnl 30/09/2017 The Meadows Fanta Bale 41.66 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Ht 8/06/2017 Albion Park Fanta Bale 41.78 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Fnl 15/06/2017 Albion Park Fanta Bale 41.73 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 18/05/2017 Sandown Park Fanta Bale 41.87 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 25/05/2017 Sandown Park Fanta Bale 42.22 1st 720m Association Cup Ht 8/04/2017 Wentworth Park Trip To Eden 42.02 1st 720m Association Cup Fnl 15/04/2017 Wentworth Park Trip To Eden 42.54 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 25/02/2017 The Meadows Trip To Eden 42.31 1st 715m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 4/03/2017 The Meadows Trip To Eden 42.48 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 11/11/2016 Sandown Park It's A Bird 41.89 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 18/11/2016 Sandown Park It's A Bird 42.29 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Ht 17/09/2016 The Meadows Burn One Down 42.33 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Fnl 24/09/2016 The Meadows Burn One Down 42.17 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Ht 3/09/2016 Wentworth Park Whittaker 42.18 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Fnl 10/09/2016 Wentworth Park Whittaker 42.14 1st 710m Gold Cup Ht 2/06/2016 Albion Park My Boy Brodie 42.17 1st 710m Gold Cup Fnl 9/06/2016 Albion Park My Boy Brodie 42.31 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 19/05/2016 Sandown Park Bells Are Ringin 42.02 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 26/05/2016 Sandown Park Bells Are Ringin 42.41 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 16/04/2016 Cannington Park Seeking Justice 42.35 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 23/04/2016 Cannington Park Seeking Justice 42.09 1st 720m Association Cup Ht 19/03/2016 Wentworth Park Lioness Lulu 42.21 1st 720m Association Cup Fnl 26/03/2016 Wentworth Park Lioness Lulu 42.32 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 27/02/2016 The Meadows Star Recall 42.47 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 5/03/2016 The Meadows Star Recall 42.42 1st 720m Summer Distance Plate Ht 9/01/2016 Wentworth Park No Donuts 41.97 1st 720m Summer Distance Plate Fnl 16/01/2016 Wentworth Park No Donuts 42.43 1st 720m Sydney Cup Ht 3/10/2015 Wentworth Park Ada Mary 42.34 1st 720m Sydney Cup Fnl 10/10/2015 Wentworth Park Ada Mary 42.66 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Ht 19/09/2015 The Meadows Seeking Justice 42.61 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Fnl 26/09/2015 The Meadows Seeking Justice 42.00 1st 710m Gold Cup Ht 4/06/2015 Albion Park Dzeko 42.44 1st 710m Gold Cup Fnl 11/06/2015 Albion Park Dzeko 41.82 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 14/05/2015 Sandown Park Sweet It Is 41.49 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 21/05/2015 Sandown Park Sweet It Is 41.71 1st 720m Gold Cup Ht 18/04/2015 Wentworth Park Space Star 42.01 1st 720m Gold Cup Fnl 25/04/2015 Wentworth Park Space Star 41.71 1st 720m Association Cup Ht 28/03/2015 Wentworth Park Space Star 42.09 1st 720m Association Cup Fnl 4/04/2015 Wentworth Park Space Star 42.93 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 28/02/2015 The Meadows Luna Jinx 42.34 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 7/03/2015 The Meadows Luna Jinx 41.57 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 31/01/2015 Cannington Park Space Star 41.63 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 7/02/2015 Cannington Park Space Star 42.20 1st 720m Summer Distance Plate Ht 10/01/2015 Wentworth Park Space Star 42.18 1st 720m Summer Distance Plate Fnl 17/01/2015 Wentworth Park Space Star 42.00 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Ht 6/09/2014 Wentworth Park Zipping Maggie 41.78 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Fnl 13/09/2014 Wentworth Park Zipping Maggie 42.72 1st 725m AWM Dist C/ship Ht 19/07/2014 The Meadows Mepunga Tiara 42.66 1st 725m AWM Dist C/ship Fnl 26/07/2014 The Meadows Mepunga Tiara 41.55 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Ht 5/06/2014 Albion Park Xylia Allen 41.71 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Fnl 12/06/2014 Albion Park Xylia Allen 42.04 1st 720m Gold Cup Ht 22/03/2014 Wentworth Park Dyna Willow 41.74 1st 720m Gold Cup Fnl 29/03/2014 Wentworth Park Dyna Willow 42.86 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 22/02/2014 The Meadows Destini Fireball 42.57 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 1/03/2014 The Meadows Destini Fireball 41.71 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 1/02/2014 Cannington Park Born Ali 42.05 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 8/02/2014 Cannington Park Born Ali 41.92 1st 720m Summer Cup Ht 30/11/2013 Wentworth Park Dyna Willow 41.92 1st 720m Summer Cup Fnl 7/12/2013 Wentworth Park Dyna Willow 42.30 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 14/11/2013 Sandown Park Cheetah Zorro 42.26 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 21/11/2013 Sandown Park Cheetah Zorro 42.03 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Ht 7/09/2013 Wentworth Park Proven Impala 42.01 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Fnl 14/09/2013 Wentworth Park Proven Impala 41.92 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 16/05/2013 Sandown Park Irma Bale 42.10 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 23/05/2013 Sandown Park Irma Bale 43.33 1st 731m West End Dist C/ship Ht 4/04/2013 Angle Park Mimicking 43.08 1st 731m West End Dist C/ship Fnl 11/04/2013 Angle Park Mimicking 42.39 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 23/02/2013 The Meadows Destini Fireball 42.73 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 2/03/2013 The Meadows Destini Fireball 41.48 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 9/02/2013 Cannington Park Miata 41.60 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 2/02/2013 Cannington Park Miata 42.16 1st 720m Summer Distance Plate Ht 12/01/2013 Wentworth Park Irma Bale 42.32 1st 720m Summer Distance Plate Fnl 19/01/2013 Wentworth Park Irma Bale 42.26 1st 720m Summer Cup Ht 1/12/2012 Wentworth Park Bell Haven 42.16 1st 720m Summer Cup Fnl 8/12/2012 Wentworth Park Bell Haven 41.80 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 15/11/2012 Sandown Park Miata 41.79 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 22/11/2012 Sandown Park Miata 42.71 1st 720m Sydney Cup Ht 6/10/2012 Wentworth Park Bell Haven 42.25 1st 720m Sydney Cup Fnl 13/10/2012 Wentworth Park Bell Haven 42.02 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Ht 7/06/2012 Albion Park He Knows Uno 41.78 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Fnl 14/06/2012 Albion Park He Knows Uno 41.84 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 17/05/2012 Sandown Park Irma Bale 41.79 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 24/05/2012 Sandown Park Irma Bale 41.81 1st 720m Association Cup Ht 31/03/2012 Wentworth Park Miata 41.94 1st 720m Association Cup Fnl 7/04/2012 Wentworth Park Miata 41.58 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 28/01/2012 Cannington Park Miata 41.30 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 4/02/2012 Cannington Park Miata 42.27 1st 720m Summer Cup Ht 26/11/2011 Wentworth Park Zipping Lad 42.49 1st 720m Summer Cup Fnl 3/12/2011 Wentworth Park Zipping Lad 42.14 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Ht 3/09/2011 Wentworth Park Shimaguni 42.06 1st 720m Chairman's Cup Fnl 10/09/2011 Wentworth Park Shimaguni 42.53 1st 725m AWM Dist C/ship Ht 23/07/2011 The Meadows Shimaguni 42.57 1st 725m AWM Dist C/ship Fnl 30/07/2011 The Meadows Shimaguni 41.67 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 19/05/2011 Sandown Park Bobby Boucheau 41.57 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 26/05/2011 Sandown Park Bobby Boucheau 42.84 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Ht 26/02/2011 The Meadows Bobby Boucheau 42.29 1st 725m Australian Super Stayers Fnl 5/03/2011 The Meadows Bobby Boucheau 42.21 1st 715m Bold Trease Ht 11/11/2010 Sandown Park So Seductive 41.90 1st 715m Bold Trease Fnl 18/11/2010 Sandown Park So Seductive 41.70 1st 715m Sir John Dillon Memorial Ht 21/10/2010 Sandown Park So Seductive 42.20 1st 715m Sir John Dillon Memorial Fnl 28/10/2010 Sandown Park So Seductive 42.11 1st 720m Sydney Cup Ht 9/10/2010 Wentworth Park Nana Cook 42.38 1st 720m Sydney Cup Fnl 16/10/2010 Wentworth Park Nana Cook 42.89 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Ht 18/09/2010 The Meadows Blue Lorian 42.88 1st 725m Top Cat Video Cup Fnl 25/09/2010 The Meadows Blue Lorian 42.97 1st 725m AWM Dist C/ship Ht 24/07/2010 The Meadows Blue Lorian 42.86 1st 725m AWM Dist C/ship Fnl 31/07/2010 The Meadows Blue Lorian 41.57 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Ht 27/05/2010 Albion Park Nellie Noodles 41.84 1st 710m Qld Gold Cup Fnl 3/06/2010 Albion Park Nellie Noodles 42.28 1st 715m Sandown Cup Ht 6/05/2010 Sandown Park Next Top Model 41.96 1st 715m Sandown Cup Fnl 13/05/2010 Sandown Park Next Top Model 41.43 1st 715m Galaxy Ht 6/03/2010 Cannington Park Drill Em 41.33 1st 715m Galaxy Fnl 13/03/2010 Cannington Park Drill Em 42.09 1st 720m Association Cup Ht 9/01/2010 Wentworth Park Mantra Lad 42.14 1st 720m Association Cup Fnl 16/01/2010 Wentworth Park Mantra Lad
The above list shows exactly 75 Group Staying Events, where the greyhound who won a heat won the final.
From those 75 race results, 45 finals were won in fastest times than their heat win, with 30 being slower.
From those 30 slower Final, 7 were "1 Length" slower with another 5 finals "2 Lengths" slower, than the greyhound's heat time the previous week.
Bruce Teague wrote:
This thread is about staying abilities in general and incidentally includes comments about 7-day backups, which is just one part of the larger subject.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 22 Jan 2020 09:49
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Nice work Steve
I was wondering when you were going to crank up your old computer, it's no Deep Blue but seems to work alright
Not handpicked, not manipulated, no excuses for interference or track conditions or any other cop out,
Bruce Teague wrote:
Sandro,
It was not missed at all. You failed to check.
I pointed out that True Detective was a victim of unfamiliarity with the BGC710m in its heat - particularly the first turn near the 600m boxes - and therefore ran moderate time. It ran all over the track, thereby increasing its elapsed time.
blah blah blah
Just pure Group race distance results over 10 years
By my layman's mathematical calculation I would say that 60% of the sample shows that a 7 day back up did not affect the previous weeks heat winner who won the Final
Maybe Deep Blue can find a cop out for the 40% that didn't
Patrick D'Arcy Australia (Verified User) Posts 188 Dogs 3 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 10:14
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Well, well Bruce the boys have certainly delivered some compelling stats to negate your 7 day back up theory. I can visualise you staring at your computer desperately trying to conger up a decent rebuttal. Or is this the end of this fantasy thread? For years Paul Dolan used to point out the incredible strike rate of dogs winning at Capalaba on a Sunday then backing up to win at Albion Park on the following Thursday. That's only 4 days, but according to you those dogs should have been resting. In reality it depends on the individual dog & the trainer knowing his dog jmo Bruce, you have repeatedly admitted that you know little about training a greyhound because you are purely a punter. An informed punter it seems, that is, a an above average form student. So may I suggest that you start a new thread that contains a weekly list of YOUR "dogs to follow" so we may all benefit from your superior knowledge of upcoming winners?
Shane Lippel Australia (Verified User) Posts 667 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 10:35
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Bruce,Sorry mate,but the fact of the matter,your wrong! For starters you based a lot of this at the start on Tornado Tears.He was a freaky dog but, he chased one week,and not as hard the following week,sometimes! Plus there are to many variables to your argument.A dog might have Box 1 in the heat and get a easy run .Then in the final end up with the 5 box and have to work harder to get to the front and win.Tracks can vary in times from week to week,one week fast times are run,the following week it can be rated slow,and slow times are run!One decent bump in a race can cost a dog time in a race,lose a length and a half by getting pushed wide,costs your dog one tenth of a second,simple as that! Your over analysing this.Reminds me of a Apprentice trying to learn his trade at Tech school,and reading to many books,you learn a little,but nowhere near as much as actually working on the job,as in reading form and watching as opposed to actually training a dog! You appear to not liking to admit when your wrong,I may be wrong,but I did use the word "Appear". Nothing wrong with admitting when your wrong as you are definitely wrong in this case! Dogs are all different,some will back up from week to week,some wont,thats a fact.Association Cup winner from years ago,Worthy Reward,came out running in his heat and led high balling out in front, then faded to run a place.7 days later came out running again and led,opened up a 10 length lead down the back and blew them away running just outside the track record,and running the fastest time of the year over the 720 mtrs at Wentworth Park.So I think he backed up pretty good just quietly!!That was his last run over the distance,but I'm telling you now,if he backed up again 7 days later,he would of went faster again smashed the record.So like I said,Dogs are different, tracks vary from week to week,race conditions change etc etc.If you can, I'd just admit in this case your wrong,and move on! Look at the Facts Sandro and Steve posted,they blow your argument out of the water,that's a Fact,you can try if your stupid,which I don't think you are! Someone mentioned Albert Einstein earlier, absolute genius, that's a well known fact,but guess what,he even got some things wrong,just like you are on this matter! Not being rude or offensive Bruce,I've read some of your stories over the years,and have enjoyed reading them,some well written stuff,but your wrong on this one,that's a Fact!!
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 22 Jan 2020 10:36
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Patrick D'Arcy wrote:
Well, well Bruce the boys have certainly delivered some compelling stats to negate your 7 day back up theory. I can visualise you staring at your computer desperately trying to conger up a decent rebuttal. Or is this the end of this fantasy thread? For years Paul Dolan used to point out the incredible strike rate of dogs winning at Capalaba on a Sunday then backing up to win at Albion Park on the following Thursday. That's only 4 days, but according to you those dogs should have been resting. In reality it depends on the individual dog & the trainer knowing his dog jmo
Pat A person in denial is unable to deal with an emerging truth. A denial thus reveals not only content, but also personality structure, a kind of fracture in the person in question.
Patrick D'Arcy Australia (Verified User) Posts 188 Dogs 3 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 10:48
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Kevin Wright wrote:
Patrick D'Arcy wrote:
Well, well Bruce the boys have certainly delivered some compelling stats to negate your 7 day back up theory. I can visualise you staring at your computer desperately trying to conger up a decent rebuttal. Or is this the end of this fantasy thread? For years Paul Dolan used to point out the incredible strike rate of dogs winning at Capalaba on a Sunday then backing up to win at Albion Park on the following Thursday. That's only 4 days, but according to you those dogs should have been resting. In reality it depends on the individual dog & the trainer knowing his dog jmo
Pat A person in denial is unable to deal with an emerging truth. A denial thus reveals not only content, but also personality structure, a kind of fracture in the person in question.
Kevin, I edited my post just before you posted yours. I have challenged our Bruce to use his expertise to benefit us all
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 10:48
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Thank you Steve and Sandro for the figures. A lot of us have known that they can back up.
Many years ago I wrote that some of the contributors on here are smart. The figures that youve brought to the argument are compelling, and overwhelmingly favours what weve been trying to explain to the writer that dogs can back up over the staying trip after seven days and do not need 14 days to recover. Some may or do, but their DNA allows them to get over the staying trip with 300m races being just a waste of time for stayers (unless early in their career with exceptions to the rule)
A special mention must go to MG , Ryan n other smaller contributors. I think we have convinced the writer aka Tornado its okay to be mistaken or incorrect and acknowledge it.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 14:02
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Bruce Check Mate ! Stayers back up sweet 7 days ok all good . Graham old basic principle of training stayers goes back to the 60s. Progressive breeding, modern training techniques have way surpassed my old principle. Huge Thanks to all for recent posts that were decent / respectable / factual / irrefutable. Kev showed great restraint well done. Historically Sandro, great race name. MG I can hear hello John gotta new motor playing in the tunnels. In Chess. Sound calculated Sacrifice of a piece to gain a winning advantage, if no sacrifice then tempo is lost and defeat imminent. Bruce you have a decision either accept a mistake and feel enlightened or spit it and continue the now deflated crusade. ( Speed Kills ) Old Chinese proverb. Mistakes do not dwelt just make correction. So Bruce go forwards or backwards ? The Answers are here at GData. You now know GData Grey masters are rather good dont you think. Chess proverb. The (Greyhound ) ocean is where a gnat can drink and elephants bathe. Big herd here on GData
Time for a fresh new topic someone suggested, bloody good idea. Do it please so we can ditch this (War and Peace ) speed can kill topic and all move forward. Speed Thrives !
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 19:39
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Mark Donohue wrote:
Thank you Steve and Sandro for the figures. A lot of us have known that they can back up.
Many years ago I wrote that some of the contributors on here are smart. The figures that youve brought to the argument are compelling, and overwhelmingly favours what weve been trying to explain to the writer that dogs can back up over the staying trip after seven days and do not need 14 days to recover. Some may or do, but their DNA allows them to get over the staying trip with 300m races being just a waste of time for stayers (unless early in their career with exceptions to the rule)
A special mention must go to MG , Ryan n other smaller contributors. I think we have convinced the writer aka Tornado its okay to be mistaken or incorrect and acknowledge it.
I forgot to mention the input in which the 2019 Casino and Lismore Cups winning trainer, Terry Jordan made to the argument, Simon Moore who kept on reminding us not to end up in the abyss and many others who made this moment possible. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Someone once said to me, "don't bring a knife to a gun fight." I suppose in this case, we just had to find the right ammunition. Steven found the facts and figures that made the win possible. As we all know, winning is fleeting.
Cheers, Mark
Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Jan 2020 20:50
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Graham,
I suggested some time back that the subject was done and dusted but others wanted to continue attacking. I also offered to continue on occasions when another feature race was in front of us.
I congratulate those who have done some hard work to pull out historical examples of whatever (but not about trips of 400m/500m which are not relevant to a staying discussion).
The new conclusion is that we are all right some of the time. As I have said repeatedly, one third can do it, two thirds can't. That is the long term evidence. There is nothing new presented now to alter that. The story about winners is no doubt pretty right but my story is about all runners, not just the winners.
If you are talking about a Racing Rule (21A in this case) you must consider the whole population, not just part of it.
Otherwise you are catering only for the Queen and forgetting about the King, Bishop, Rook, etc, which can do you some damage.
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 22 Jan 2020 21:09
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Oooh, Stevo, why did you go and do that for? Brilliant work mate. You now have the Tornado drinking copious amounts of vino and stuffing his pipe with silly weed frantically trying to map out a twisted, fabricated, delusional response.
The glaring deception in all this rubbish has been the refusal to make the argument balanced with records of 300, 400, 500, 600, and 700 figures. At the end of the day it all comes out the same percentage for exactly the same reasons. Dogs are dogs. Bad luck. Good luck. Trouble. No trouble. Tummy ache. Stirred up in kennel, blah blah blah. Its endless.
I'm guessing the whole crusade was started 10 years ago when he did his whole pay packet on a stayer.
It's not over...a narcissist can never concede defeat. The saving grace is that the very few who were hoodwinked can now see reality clearly.
Ever seen the movie "The Party"? It's a Peter Sellers movie where he plays an lunatic Indian. There's a scene where he's an extra in a war movie, playing the bugle...he gets shot about 6,000 times and refuses to die...
The forecast for today is for hot gusty winds...
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 22 Jan 2020 21:16
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Graham,
I suggested some time back that the subject was done and dusted but others wanted to continue attacking. I also offered to continue on occasions when another feature race was in front of us.
I congratulate those who have done some hard work to pull out historical examples of whatever (but not about trips of 400m/500m which are not relevant to a staying discussion).
The new conclusion is that we are all right some of the time. As I have said repeatedly, one third can do it, two thirds can't. That is the long term evidence. There is nothing new presented now to alter that. The story about winners is no doubt pretty right but my story is about all runners, not just the winners.
If you are talking about a Racing Rule (21A in this case) you must consider the whole population, not just part of it.
Otherwise you are catering only for the Queen and forgetting about the King, Bishop, Rook, etc, which can do you some damage.
Now don;t go changing the parameters...
We are not both right, you are clearly wrong and we are clearly correct
Firstly, this whole kerfuffle was about stayers not being able to back up within 7 day and the suggestion that they should have 14 days rest.
Can I say, that is one way to guarantee that you will never see another staying race ever run if that silly and uneducated rule was ever brought in
Why don't you take the time and ask Robert Britton whether he was willing to ever give his stayers 14 days break between every start.
I would like his answer recorded please and played back, but not when children are present.
Now you want to include 400m and 500m dogs into this argument, where the incidence of interference is even greater and skews times even further.
Mate, you are somewhat bitter and twisted over something that none of us can fathom.
Secondly, one third can't back up, you are way off the mark. Last weeks winner can be last weeks loser for a number of reasons.
That reasoning is far too inaccurate to try and prove your premise of stayers not being able to back up within 7 days.
I am not going to to through the reasons ''again'' for you because I will just be ''wasting'' my time talking to you about it....you don;t want to hear it
Just accept you are wrong in this case, you tried hard, but you are wrong and we provided you with real examples over a number of years at the elite level, where the effect of travelling interstate adds to the performance variables, what have you got to fall back on.....Tornado Tears and True Detective and Blazing Cartier...
even poor old Fanta Bale who you bagged the crap out of proved you wrong in the Sydney Cup and the Bold Trease, she even improved her time
Just keep going mate, because I have plenty of examples that haven't even hit the page yet
If you need help or advice about a dog you are retiring then this is the place for you.
