x however can pass thru a male onto a female and then a male again but genetically cannot pass thru 2 males consecutively.

if you printed say Temlee's pedigree and traced Brenda Gay's x chromosome thru to Temlee's litter - start by marking each dog xy and each bitch xx on the printed sheet and work your way through.

re Chief Havoc, you haven't named the pup so I cant tell Ted.

I found that after 12 gens x can be too hit 'n' miss, so not too much confidence if relying on Chief Havoc as he may be too far back, BUT yes it may be possible depending on his poitioning in the pedigree.

I created a list at the time(which I haven't kept updated), and what I found was that the very best greyhounds of yesteryear were a part of litters that also traced back to predominantly only a handful of families as the first cross in the x path thru either full bros/sis or full blood relations combinations (repeat matings).

Slater: 11 x 11 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Temlee: 4 x 5 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Brett Lee: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Awesome Assassin: 9 x 10 x10 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Path to Power : 11 x 10 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Leeapril Lass: 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Winifred Bale 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Blue Brew 4 x 6 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay

The 3 littermates thru Brenda Gay are That's Fine, Top Linen and Brenda's Daughter

Flying Amy: 4 x 6 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Pure Octane: 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Big Daddy Cool: 8 x 5 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Gay's Fancy: 4 x 5 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Miagi: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Finlandia: 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Queen Lauryn: 7 x 7 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Give Me Five: 6 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Weetbix: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
True Temptation: 4 x 5 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
That's Just Me 6 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Ruff It 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Kalden Athena 6 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Sensation Lee 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Temora Lee

The littermates thru Temora Lee are Temlee & Viola Lee

Web of Silence: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Worth Doing: 5 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bit Chili: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Cee Four: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Dyna Lachlan: 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Prince of Tigers: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fantasy Fortune: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bright Ebony: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Big Moose: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fox Hunt 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss (thru Mister Moss & Honey Lass)

Their are 3 sets of littermates here. The most prominent thru Elsie Moss are Miller's Moss & Clay Moss, however in Bright Ebony case for example it's Mister Moss and Pearl Moss & Fox Hunt is different again as shown above.

Regal Thyme: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Bob's One: 4 x 6 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Surgeon: 7 x7 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Little Denver: 4 x 3 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Cindeen Shelby: 7 x 7 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss

The full blood relations thru Zulu Moss are Chief Dingaan & Zimbabwe

Train A Journey 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Bearability 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Primo Uno 7 x 8 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Countess of Cork 8 x 10 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
National Queen 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Topline Doovee 10 x 8 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Shy Sarah 4 x 3 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Traction Control 8 x 7 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Fag Ash 4 x 4 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose

Mainly thru littermates Venetian Babe and Venetian Court, however Bearability & Fag Ash is thru other littermate Roman Earl

Kobble Rock 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Flashing Floods 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Most Awesome 7 x 7 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Miata 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Fedex 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Paw Licking 7 x 8 in the primary in x to Cursorial

Thru Littermates Zulu Moss and Riviera Moss

National Star 6 x 9 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
La Twist 7 x 8 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
Nellie Noodles 7 x 10 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
Whippy's Image 8 x 11 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
It's a plane
Fernando Bale

Thru littermates/full blood relations Magic Babe, Early Jet, Gemdelina, Tell You Why, etc.,

As you can see I've tacked a couple of modern day dogs on the end without fully tracing them all back to their generation line nos.

Now there were other families coming thru in dribs and drabs without the same quality and/or nos, so initially these were the families that stood out in the x path as a primary cross thru full blood relations or littermates.

Here's a more recent one arguably stepping up as Brenda Gay and even Venetian Rose become redundant as primary crosses :

Pink Character 3 x 3 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Knocka Knows All 5 x 4 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Sapphire Madam 5 x 4 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Marlow Brown 5 x 4 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Black Driftwood 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Estranged 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Reviewer 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Falcons Fury 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
*Poke the Bear 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Monster Fish 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Black Forge 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame

The 2 sets of littermates involved are Awesome Assassin and Goddess of Fire from the '94 litter & Tranquil Scene and Lilli Pilli Lad from the '97 repeat mating litter.

NB. *Poke the Bear's litter are equally 6 x 5 in x to Famous Portrait as well

Moving on from there, if you look at Kinloch Brae with 7 out of 10 top offspring on g/data being once again through 2 males in Max Moss & Mister Moss in x, being sons of Which Chariot/Elsie Moss, so that influence is negated as well ? How exactly is that breeding better dogs ?

Can you please save me some time and list the dogs you've checked to make up that majority ? Cheers.

EXTERNAL LINK

The first with this lot 15 to 20 or so yrs ago mainly through litter brothers Millers Moss & Clay Moss:

Web of Silence: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Worth Doing: 5 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bit Chili: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Cee Four: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Dyna Lachlan: 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Prince of Tigers: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fantasy Fortune: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bright Ebony: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Big Moose: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fox Hunt 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss (thru Mister Moss & Honey Lass)

And again through the intervention of Kinloch Brae 5-10 or so yrs ago with litter brothers Max Moss and Mister Moss, where the litters of 7 out of 10 top offspring of Kinloch Brae on g/data were linebred in the x path to Elsie Moss once again.

I can't ever remember a particular dam in the x path reinventing herself twice like that previously .

If anyone was in any doubt about x path being an influence in pedigrees, Elsie Moss is undeniable proof that it is.

Thanks for starting the topic Ted. cheers.

When I check x path now I can't remember seeing QL in x thru her different offspring on either side of the pedigree. Do you have any examples of that occurring?

or are you talking about QL being in x to Temora Lee ?
If so which particular dogs from the line did you have in mind ?

When I looked in the early 2000's it seemed to be working up to 12 gens, then hit/miss after that.

As for the old timers they wld have had to get out the stud books and the butchers paper(which some did btw), to trace back that far. How many wld have bothered ? They wld've been there for a month of Sundays. With g/data if they were complex x paths going deep into a pedigree you may be able to work out the primary x path within say an hr and a half.

If you started with the easy x paths such as Temlee, Worth Doing, True Temptation and Little Denver within 5 gens - marked every dog as xy and every bitch in the ped xx from the cornerstone broods and traced them to the front of the pedigree, you'd get to know the x path quite quickly. Up to you.