home - to The Greyhound-Database
Home  |  Dog-Search  |  Dogs ID  |  Races  |  Race Cards  |  Coursing  |  Tracks  |  Statistic  |  Testmating  |  Kennels  
 
   SHOP
Facebook
Login  |  Private Messages  |  add_race  |  add_coursing  |  add_dog  |  Membership  |  Advertising  | Ask the Vet  | Memorials    Help  print pedigree      
TV  |  Active-Sires  |  Sire-Pages  |  Stud Dogs  |  Which Sire?  |  Classifieds  |  Auctions  |  Videos  |  Adoption  |  Forum  |  About_us  |  Site Usage

Welcome to the Greyhound Knowledge Forum

   

The Greyhound-Data Forum has been created to act as a platform for greyhound enthusiasts to share information on this magnificent animal called a greyhound.

Greyhound-Data reserve the right to remove any post that is off topic, advertisements or opinions they consider to be offensive.

Please read the forum usage manual please note:

If you answer then please try to stay on topic. It's absolutely okay to answer in a broader scope but don't hijack posts by switching to something off topic.

In case you see an insulting post: DO NOT REPLY TO IT!
Use the report button to inform the moderators so that we can delete it.

Read more...

All TopicsFor SaleGD-WebsiteBreedingHealthRacingCoursingRetirementBettingTalkLogin to post
Do you have questions about breeding theories?
Or do you need tips on how to rear your pups?

Repeat Matingspage  1 2 3 

Sue Burley
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5559
Dogs 10310 / Races 14781

01 Sep 2011 04:18


 (0)
 (0)


An interesting article from the Greyhound Racing Victoria website giving some of the top breeders views on the subject of repeat matings.

Top breeders split on the science of repeat matings

There is a theory in greyhound folklore that when it comes to repeat matings the odds of the litter resulting in something special is minimal.

A repeat mating is a litter that is not the first produced to the same combination of sire and dam.

Regardless of how good a first mating may have been, some breeders blatantly refuse to take their dam back to the same sire.

Paul Wheeler is one of seven top breeders recently asked to express his views on repeat matings, and he didnt pull any punches when stating he isn't a big fan.

In my opinion when talking about breeding you can never say a particular thing happens all the time. The best we can say is something happens in the majority of cases, and that there is always an exception to the rule", Wheeler said.

"My experiences with repeat matings is that the quality appears to decrease each time the repeat mating occurs."

"That said, the best success I've had with them is not to mate to the same dog in succession, but to use say Dog A first, then Dog B second, then go back to Dog A. I have no idea why this is the case, but it seems to have work best for us in the past.

Victoria's Tony McGrath agrees that there is a good percentage of breeders that shy away from repeat matings, although the numbers have decreased over the years."

"What some people forget is that repeat matings occur when something special comes out of the first mating, so the dam is on a hiding to nothing because the expectations are often unrealistically high, McGrath said.

Interestingly, McGrath was one of three of the seven breeders [along with Peter Giles and Helen Ivers] who spoke glowingly about repeat matings based on their own experiences.

A fourth, Lenny Jones was also positive, and is looking forward to breeding his first repeat mating in the near future.

Paul Bartolo, currently ranked Victorias number one breeder according to Greyhound Racing Victoria rankings, has some scepticism about repeat matings despite the fact he has had good success from them, and his cautious views are shared to some degree by GRVs current number two breeder, Des Dooley.

Paul Bartolo (Victoria)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. Several times.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Possibly.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. No.

Comment: "I'm a bit 50/50 on repeat matings. I have had group winners from them, but from my experience our second litters haven't been quite as good as the first."

Des Dooley (Victoria)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. Once.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Probably.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. Maybe.

Comment: "I bred one repeat mating many years ago. I'd be a lot more confident about breeding a repeat mating again if the dam was six years old or younger and if she hadn't had more than three or four litters."

Peter Giles (Victoria)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. Many times.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Yes.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. Yes.

Comment: "The best litter Ihave ever bred was from a repeat mating of Gun Law Osti and Floodgate. Ihave bred repeat matings a lot of times and the second litter is always as good as the first,if not better."

Helen Ivers (Victoria)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. A few times.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Yes.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. Yes.

Comment: "I've always found them to work really well for me. Genetics is genetics and I don't understand why any breeder would shy away from repeat matings."

Lenny Jones (Victoria)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. No.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Yes.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. Yes.

Comment: "If the first mating was a success then I would certainly go to the same sire again. In fact Iplan tomate Offspringer with Mogambo again as the first litter has produced Echelon and Granduer."

Tony McGrath (Victoria)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. Yes.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Yes.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. Yes.

Comment: "Repeat matings generallyoccur when something special comes from the first mating,and the odds of something special coming from the second mating are going to be reduced, no matter which sire she goes to."

Paul Wheeler (NSW)
Q. Have you ever bred a repeat mating?
A. Yes.

Q. Would you breed a repeat mating in the future?
A. Yes, under special circumstances.

Q. Would you buy a pup from repeat mating?
A. Probably not.

Comment: "In general Iam not a big fan of repeat matings, but when a female has produced so good to a particular sire it is very tempting to have another go and see what happens."





Barry Ribbons
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 847
Dogs 68 / Races 231

01 Sep 2011 07:05


 (0)
 (0)


Very interesting..Good read Sue..Thank you for posting it.


Brad Napper
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 937
Dogs 1 / Races 2

01 Sep 2011 07:29


 (0)
 (0)


What are peoples personal views on this? Have they had experience with repeat mating?


Benjamin Day
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 45
Dogs 2 / Races 0

01 Sep 2011 07:45


 (0)
 (0)


Surf Lorian is a success story when it comes to repeat matings. Peter Bellamy must've seen something he liked as the first JTB litter weren't even 12 months old when he did it.

Personally not up my alley, too expensive a gamble and friends that have done it have got burnt. (Obviously there are exceptions to the rule!)



Dan Hollywood
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1193
Dogs 2 / Races 20

01 Sep 2011 07:48


 (0)
 (0)


I think the majorities aim is to breed winners, or have someone breed them for you. We know the bigger (prolific) breeders experiment with repeats and have had success. Breeders of other species of the animal world are often repeating and with much success also, because if the original works and is of quality, there is every chance the repeat would be also. Repeats are also specifically for breeding purpose's for your females, which may be the main reason behind some of the bigger breeders repeats.



Len Jones
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 614
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Sep 2011 08:35


 (0)
 (0)


Benjamin Day wrote:

Surf Lorian is a success story when it comes to repeat matings. Peter Bellamy must've seen something he liked as the first JTB litter weren't even 12 months old when he did it.

Personally not up my alley, too expensive a gamble and friends that have done it have got burnt. (Obviously there are exceptions to the rule!)

Nothing wrong with MOGAMBO 1st. litter 2nd litter repeat mating LADY ARKO


Graeme Beasley
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3265
Dogs 27 / Races 5

01 Sep 2011 08:35


 (0)
 (0)


A repeat mating due to previous success is just a more relevant "nick". In other words, if the first mating works you know there's a nick between your dam and the sire so there's no reason not to do it.


Jeff Holland
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4831
Dogs 145 / Races 12

01 Sep 2011 08:39


 (1)
 (0)


I've had several champions from repeat matings, from Kedos Image, Kedos Millie to Now Running- Kedos Jenny- Murphys Benji, who from memory won 44 city races.

Even the repeat mating to Lucy Lawless produced a top dog in Gate Way


Doug Taylor
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2189
Dogs 34 / Races 136

01 Sep 2011 08:48


 (0)
 (0)


Graeme Beasley wrote:

A repeat mating due to previous success is just a more relevant "nick". In other words, if the first mating works you know there's a nick between your dam and the sire so there's no reason not to do it.

Totally agree Graeme, you just hope the stars align and the 'right' genes find their way through again if the first one was a success.


Brad Napper
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 937
Dogs 1 / Races 2

01 Sep 2011 08:52


 (0)
 (0)


guess it makes sense if you get something good from a first litter to try again



Darren McKenzie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1823
Dogs 96 / Races 105

01 Sep 2011 09:02


 (0)
 (0)


Martin Roper posted these interesting words a while back.......refering to Pat Dalton and the 'Butler's' theme for creating what they have.........and the theme involves plenty of repeat matings !!!!!

" It's not going to work every time but when it does work out it tends to do so especially well.

Pat Dalton bred the daughters of 'Maythorn Pride' over and over to 'Sail On II'. It's worth studying how he took the ensuing generations of her granddaughters and great granddaughters to a variety of sires and then rebred all of them to the sire that worked best.

Here in the 'States', Mary Butler bred daughters of 'Representation' to 'K's Flak' to great effect. When 'K's Flak' died of old age, she tried nearly every one of his sonsand finally settled upon 'Mi Designer' and the line hardly missed a beat. The ensuing granddaughters were bred to various sires and 'Fortress' proved to be the best cross and all the daughters were bred to 'Fortress' after that. The next generation was largely bred to 'HB's Commander' sons and great success was achieved with both 'Molotov' and 'Oswald Cobblepot' and to a lesser extent other 'Commander' line sires.

The truely great breeders establish the pattern, breed identically bred 'MAIDEN' daughters to a variety of sires, then breed all of them back again and again to the sire that worked best. Do that generation after generation and you get a dynasty like that of Pat Dalton's and the 'Butler's'. Of Course it helps to start with a 'Maythorn Pride' or a 'Representation' !!! "

Courtesy Martin Roper ........




John Tyrrell
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 13
Dogs 4 / Races 0

01 Sep 2011 09:18


 (0)
 (0)


have a look at yella mustard he is the third repeat in a row of awesome berger x bombastic shiraz smart betsy was 1st litter


Michael Murphy
Ireland
(Verified User)
Posts 4723
Dogs 1673 / Races 1

01 Sep 2011 09:21


 (0)
 (0)


Very difficult not to heed top breeders opinions but it is worth noting that Millies May
CLICK HERE was bred three times to Man of Pleasure. These three litters left a huge influence on the breed and the third was at least as good as the other two performance and breeding wise .

There are a number of other examples but generally speaking it is more often than not that repeat litters fail high expectations.

Mugs IMO.



Jeff Holland
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4831
Dogs 145 / Races 12

01 Sep 2011 09:26


 (0)
 (0)


John Tyrrell wrote:

have a look at yella mustard he is the third repeat in a row of awesome berger x bombastic shiraz smart betsy was 1st litter

CLICK HERE


Darren McKenzie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1823
Dogs 96 / Races 105

01 Sep 2011 20:26


 (1)
 (0)


CLICK HERE

......there are many quality names from repeat matings. 'Roman Earl' is a good example.

Generally speaking, the age of the female is as big a factor in repeat mating strike rate success/failure as any.................the clock is always ticking against the female and a repeat mating (because of a previous successful mating) often is done too late............ adding bias to the failure rate numbers too.

Repeat mate before a females 6th birthday and there's no excuses for that angle.............and hope 'probability' smiles again on the mating.


Tom Flanagan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7250
Dogs 974 / Races 1022

01 Sep 2011 20:34


 (1)
 (0)


CLICK HERE
Silly to argue against that.


Jenni Abdi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 512
Dogs 25 / Races 244

01 Sep 2011 22:33


 (0)
 (0)


CLICK HERE



Barry Ribbons
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 847
Dogs 68 / Races 231

01 Sep 2011 23:03


 (0)
 (0)


Darren Mc..I have been considering a repeat mating to OverFlo with my bitch..

CLICK HERE

... she had 3 pups to him that are 2 year old..

CLICK HERE
CLICK HERE

... they have turned out to be handy pups running fast times at WP and the Gardens from limited starts..I went to Thai Alert next litter (9mths old) would you go back to Overflo this time (as PW prefers)or move on considering she is now 7 and a half years old.I would greatly appreciate your opinion.
Regards,
Barry

[email protected]


Darren McKenzie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1823
Dogs 96 / Races 105

01 Sep 2011 23:28


 (0)
 (0)


Barry Ribbons wrote:

Darren Mc..I have been considering a repeat mating to OverFlo with my bitch..

CLICK HERE

... she had 3 pups to him that are 2 year old..

CLICK HERE
CLICK HERE

... they have turned out to be handy pups running fast times at WP and the Gardens from limited starts..I went to Thai Alert next litter (9mths old) would you go back to Overflo this time (as PW prefers)or move on considering she is now 7 and a half years old.I would greatly appreciate your opinion.
Regards,
Barry

[email protected]

Terrific 'clever linebreeding' in the 'Over Flo' mating Barry........

....'Token Prince' with 'Flo Jo Tears'........both by 'Malawi's Prince' but with a different 'Bay Road Queen' line.............and both coming to the party via male and female doses........fabulous linebreeding this..........and of course backed up with 'Wee Sal/Malawi's Prince' meeting 'Malawi's Prince/Shining Chariot' theme to boot........with some other super balances also present..........no wonder some can run !!!!

The brood is today just on 7 and a 1/2 years on..........me, I'd breed her again to 'Over Flo' Barry..............hope I get more than just 3x this time............and gamble with her age not being past it.

There are hundreds of positive examples of aged girls still giving up great racers..............but probably even more that don't unfortunately.

This mating is so good on paper that you don't really have a choice mate..................do it and keep all your digits crossed she has plenty and you've done it just in time to beat that bloody clock (lol) :)

cheers


Howard Moshinsky
USA

Posts 163
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Sep 2011 23:34


 (0)
 (0)


MICHAEL GREAT POST THE MILLY MAY DAMLINE LENT STRUCTURE TO MODERN GREYHOUND BREEDING

ESPECIALLY HER CROSS WITH MAN OF PLEASURE WHO I THINK DOESNT GET THE RESPECT HE DESERVES

LOT OF USA KELSO PUPS HAS MILLY MAY SITTING BACK THERE

HOWARD

posts 56page  1 2 3