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Dave thanks for reminding us that your small bunch of crankshave not gone away. My god like song goes Just when i needled you most. Yes like a hole in the head. Dave what is the purpose of your crowds existence. Everyone knows ye are hell bent on dividing the greyhound community. The fact ye refused the offer of mediation from Kieran Mulvey proves that point. CLG will never be forgiven for the damage ye did to the greyhound industry by participating in and colluding with Rte in that infamous programme. It was a disgraceful betrayal of genuine greyhound people and was manna from heaven for the antis. and to think ye have the brass necks after all that to claim to represent greyhound people is absolutely ridiculous You refer to Kieran Bowles comment Where the hell is the Tipp mob who took over IGOBF.. Quite honestly i was surprised and actually disgusted at the use of the word mob. Damian and his committee were democratically elected and now represent most but at the moment not all tracks and have over 1200 members CLG are a self appointed bunch of dissidents who in the eyes of most greyhound people have the sole aim of destroying the game Finally on the subject of original post what good news Its said you only really miss something when you cant have it and thats certainly true for me and am i glad to have in particular my Friday nights in Kilkenny back
I presume you are the Cabra man and as such I respect you and certainly do not what to upset you with my mob comment in my last email.
However the mob comment is appropriate as both sides have been involved over the years ensuring that their people attain power within the different strains of influence within the industry and then using it to ensure that their people were given the right jobs i.e. parish pump politics. This has resulted in politicians over the last decade using the greyhound industry as a play thing for political purposes.
Bottom line is that people have been employed into the executive of the greyhound industry on the basis of who they know and not what they know. Pascal Taggart asked me in 2017 to work to change this status quo arising from the sale of Harrolds Cross but alas we failed as we were outside the sphere of influence. However the detailed analysis was all posted on greyhound data and I presume is still in place if somebody wants to take up the mantle.
For example a 2014 Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report titled Development of Limerick Greyhound Racing Stadium was used to examine the investment project carried out by Bord na gCon and page 31 (3.21) stated that these included expected manpower savings, information technology savings and rent savings as set out in Figure 3.5 where the IGB used the savings from moving this office to Limerick to justify building Limerick stadium in the Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report. However they never implemented these savings despite this anomaly being sent to every TD and senator in an email in 2017.
In addition the Indecon report that was used to justify the sale of HX also included grave warnings about the way the industry was being run in 2015. So you have to ask what were the Department of Agriculture doing to ensure that the industry was being run efficiently. Especially when you consider that board member Brendan Moore resigned after what he was seeing at board level during this period. In fact Mr Moore was treated disgracefully by the DOA during this period.
I have to say that Pascal Taggart is a legend similar to John Boyle as both have been only interested in seeing the greyhound industry being as successful as possible without any personal benefit. When Phil Meaney was removed as chairman I thought it was vital for the greyhound industry for the IGOBF to lobby hard for the right chairman but both sides of the IGOBF factions had no interest at the time which I found very disappointing.
Over this period a conveyor belt of IGB CEOs drove the greyhound industry into the ground and then left the industry only to get fancy jobs in Trinity and other public bodies. An example of this stupidity is clearly illustrated in this 2011 article which clearly shows that the greyhound board [was] on track to manage dog racing in China EXTERNAL LINK while at the same time the greyhound blogs i.e. greyhound data was warning the CEO of the dangers of exporting greyhounds to China due to their record in terms of animal rights.
Bottom line is that over the past decade prize money levels have been reduced by nearly 50 million from the 2007 prize money level.
Total reduction in prize money from 2007 level is 49.73 million
When you take that kind of money away from the people who look after the animals, of course it will cause welfare issues and the subsequent backlash from the antis that we have seen in recent years.
Fast forward to 2019 and RTE ignores the biggest quango in the history of the state where solid evidence is posted online (through greyhound data) only to produce a one sided program that includes a Kildare vet who has no idea of a racing greyhounds and whose comments were disproved by a number esteemed greyhound vets. Later it was discovered that this particular vet was the boyfriend of one of the producers of this program. This should have been enough for the IGB to take legal action but they continued to stick their head in the sand.
If this had occurred on the horse racing industry then it would have been defended vigorously. But what did the IGB do nothing. The upshot is that the Irish publics perception of the greyhound industry is that it is a dirty business while the horse racing industry is fine. The net effect is that horse racing has been continually been on RTE over the summer months while greyhound racing has been subjected to ridicule in the tabloids such as the piece from Ian ODoherty in the Star linking the industry to Barry Cowan.
The bottom line is that the greyhound industry became a political play thing where a disgraced minister replaced Taggart for Dick O'Sullivan to get a property deal through and then Simon Coveney rewarded Phil Meaney for getting Fine Gael TDs elected.
The net effect was that the small dog man in rural Ireland has been left to twist in the wind.
Both of these parties are now in government and will crucify the greyhound industry in the next budget in terms of the greyhound fund. The only hope is if the owners and breeders unite through Damian Matthews (our last hope), do not depend on the IGB and use the data embedded in greyhound data to sell their side of the story to the Irish public.
I presume you are the Cabra man and as such I respect you and certainly do not what to upset you with my mob comment in my last email.
However the mob comment is appropriate as both sides have been involved over the years ensuring that their people attain power within the different strains of influence within the industry and then using it to ensure that their people were given the right jobs i.e. parish pump politics. This has resulted in politicians over the last decade using the greyhound industry as a play thing for political purposes.
Bottom line is that people have been employed into the executive of the greyhound industry on the basis of who they know and not what they know. Pascal Taggart asked me in 2017 to work to change this status quo arising from the sale of Harrolds Cross but alas we failed as we were outside the sphere of influence. However the detailed analysis was all posted on greyhound data and I presume is still in place if somebody wants to take up the mantle.
For example a 2014 Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report titled Development of Limerick Greyhound Racing Stadium was used to examine the investment project carried out by Bord na gCon and page 31 (3.21) stated that these included expected manpower savings, information technology savings and rent savings as set out in Figure 3.5 where the IGB used the savings from moving this office to Limerick to justify building Limerick stadium in the Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report. However they never implemented these savings despite this anomaly being sent to every TD and senator in an email in 2017.
In addition the Indecon report that was used to justify the sale of HX also included grave warnings about the way the industry was being run in 2015. So you have to ask what were the Department of Agriculture doing to ensure that the industry was being run efficiently. Especially when you consider that board member Brendan Moore resigned after what he was seeing at board level during this period. In fact Mr Moore was treated disgracefully by the DOA during this period.
I have to say that Pascal Taggart is a legend similar to John Boyle as both have been only interested in seeing the greyhound industry being as successful as possible without any personal benefit. When Phil Meaney was removed as chairman I thought it was vital for the greyhound industry for the IGOBF to lobby hard for the right chairman but both sides of the IGOBF factions had no interest at the time which I found very disappointing.
Over this period a conveyor belt of IGB CEOs drove the greyhound industry into the ground and then left the industry only to get fancy jobs in Trinity and other public bodies. An example of this stupidity is clearly illustrated in this 2011 article which clearly shows that the greyhound board [was] on track to manage dog racing in China EXTERNAL LINK while at the same time the greyhound blogs i.e. greyhound data was warning the CEO of the dangers of exporting greyhounds to China due to their record in terms of animal rights.
Bottom line is that over the past decade prize money levels have been reduced by nearly 50 million from the 2007 prize money level.
Total reduction in prize money from 2007 level is 49.73 million
When you take that kind of money away from the people who look after the animals, of course it will cause welfare issues and the subsequent backlash from the antis that we have seen in recent years.
Fast forward to 2019 and RTE ignores the biggest quango in the history of the state where solid evidence is posted online (through greyhound data) only to produce a one sided program that includes a Kildare vet who has no idea of a racing greyhounds and whose comments were disproved by a number esteemed greyhound vets. Later it was discovered that this particular vet was the boyfriend of one of the producers of this program. This should have been enough for the IGB to take legal action but they continued to stick their head in the sand.
If this had occurred on the horse racing industry then it would have been defended vigorously. But what did the IGB do nothing. The upshot is that the Irish publics perception of the greyhound industry is that it is a dirty business while the horse racing industry is fine. The net effect is that horse racing has been continually been on RTE over the summer months while greyhound racing has been subjected to ridicule in the tabloids such as the piece from Ian ODoherty in the Star linking the industry to Barry Cowan.
The bottom line is that the greyhound industry became a political play thing where a disgraced minister replaced Taggart for Dick O'Sullivan to get a property deal through and then Simon Coveney rewarded Phil Meaney for getting Fine Gael TDs elected.
The net effect was that the small dog man in rural Ireland has been left to twist in the wind.
Both of these parties are now in government and will crucify the greyhound industry in the next budget in terms of the greyhound fund. The only hope is if the owners and breeders unite through Damian Matthews (our last hope), do not depend on the IGB and use the data embedded in greyhound data to sell their side of the story to the Irish public.
Are you listening Dave Cunningham step away.
One of the best posts ever on Greyhound data in relation to the state of the Irish Greyhound Industry. The Federations are powerless and continue to battle to dine at the ship captains table but unfortunately the ship is the Titanic.
kieran boles you should never presume any thing in life but i am the person that keeps the cabra dogs and the only thing i will say DAVE cunningham dose not speak for me or represent me in any way looking at this for years and would love to see a list of people that he dose represent i think the list would be very short
I watched the greyhound racing channel last night and there was a discussion around homing and it was stated that the outlay for 1 pup now would be over 1000 , that before it is even reared . How does that grip everyone ?
most of us are in it for the love of it frank but how many times do wee have to have our pockets robbed
Dave Cunningham Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2081 Dogs 0 / Races 0 01 Aug 2020 15:37
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Part of IGOBF CLG Letter recently sent to the CEO Mr Dollard, it didnt take too long since receiving the letter to implement such a change. THE BIGGEST WELFARE ISSUE FOR GREYHOUNDS IS PROHIBITED DRUGS. It is vital that ALL greyhounds who race on our tracks are free from prohibited substances. With this in mind We are requesting the IGB to introduce Testing of hair samples with immediate effect. Any greyhound that wishes to race must have a hair sample taken by either the Control or Stipendiary Steward. A greyhound will not be allowed to appear on any race card until the result of his test is negative. New penalties must be brought in to ensure that any greyhound that tests positive for drugs shall not be allowed to breed. All races to be graded and filled by computer for all tracks at a Central Control Location. Yours Sincerely _______________ Anthony Walsh Chairperson IGOBF --------------------------------------------------------------
At last, the IGB have decided to introduce a testing regime that might not suit too many trainers, BUT will certainly help and give the smaller greyhound man/woman a better chance in all major competitions, the Federation CLG have been calling for this method of testing to be brought in for a few years because of the wide spread use of banned substances in greyhound racing. IGB ANNOUNCES EXPANSION OF TESTING REGIME IGB The IGB has in recent years been introducing ongoing enhancements in its procedures and processes regarding detection of banned substances and misuse of medication within the sport. In 2019, the National Greyhound Laboratory in Limerick analysed 5,702 samples from greyhounds which returned 15 adverse analytical findings (0.3% of overall total). All adverse analytical findings identified are processed by the independent Control Committee and where appropriate the Control Appeal Committee. The arrangements regarding the Committees and the level of fines and penalties will be further enhanced when the Greyhound Racing Act of 2019 is commenced. The IGB expects that the Act will commence in the current year. As part of its review of overall sampling and testing arrangements, the Board has agreed an expansion of the testing regime to include blood and/or hair testing as added measures in the overall sampling and testing programme. Urine sampling will continue to be the main method of sampling as it is accepted worldwide that urine is the more effective matrix for analysis for prohibited substances. It is however the objective of IGB to maintain the options available in its anti-doping programme, to increase the number of out of competition samples and to target sampling where intelligence indicates the possible use of banned substances. In this regard, blood sampling and hair testing will be undertaken on a random and targeted basis and will be a supplement and added measure to urine sampling. The above arrangements will be brought into immediate effect. ----------------------------------------------------------------
Lets hope the IGB police this testing method properly and start by taking hair follicle samples in Clonmel at the first major event, this can only be a step in the right direction in trying to restore the Integrity of the sport and give the small man some inspiration JMHO.
Lynda Bonner United Kingdom (Team Member) Posts 6240 Dogs 77 / Races 15 03 Aug 2020 09:53
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Hi Dave
Your post above reminds me of the old story thats often used to demonstrate cause and correlation. Does eating chocolate really increase your chances of becoming a Nobel Laureate Prize winner or is there simply a correlation/coincidence between the two?
Whilst all increases in integrity for greyhound racing are very welcome, I remain sceptical about how influential the letter to which you refer has been within the IGB decision making process.
Ive looked back at the full letter youve taken the paragraphs above from.
If we are to believe that the IGB is indeed listening to the content of that letter, can we then expect they will also respond positively to the complaints it contained about increasing the entry fee and lowering the prizemoney, about penalising the suppliers of the raw materials when the IGB got 16 million from the Government, about where the money from the Hx sale has went too, about finding out why owners are leaving the Industry, about why patrons have stopped attending the tracks, about how greyhounds who test positive should not be allowed to breed, and about how races cards should be graded and filled at a central location?
And will the IGB simply have ignored the insults the letter contained such as the Greyhound Industry is on its knees and this action by you will only add to its demise or shame on you or you have an excuse each year for the abject performance of your Team or you blame everyone and everything for the disastrous decline in the industry?
Id really like to think that the IGB are listening to stakeholders and acting on their suggestions but as yet I would need to see many more of the above complaints being addressed before Id start to think that the increase in integrity around drug testing is as a direct result of a letter to the IGB (laced with a fair amount of insult) and not just simply a co-incidence.
However, I fully agree with you that this increase in integrity is very welcome good news for the Irish racing industry.
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2510 Dogs 106 / Races 6 03 Aug 2020 10:29
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Dave Cunningham I have reported your post as I find it insulting to greyhound Owners,Trainers and Breeders, and Also to the Stewarts with in the industry that work tirelessly to keep this industry clean...you stated something about a wide spread use of drugs in the industry what a load of Tripe...The National Greyhound Laboratory in Limerick analysed 5,702 samples from greyhounds which returned 15 adverse analytical findings (0.3% of overall total) Hardly Wide Spread wouldn't you agree...PS you guys have some necks on ye writing letters to anyone I for one will never ever forget how ye betrayed the industry on RTE!
I have reported insulting/slanderous/inappropriate/incorrect/bullying and misleading posts by CLG RT Federation on a large number of times. It is disappointing that Greyhound Data does not respond. Perhaps my report button is not working. I would appreciate it if other members would use their report button please. We really need to stand up to bullies and let them know they have enough damage done and they should step away.
Your post above reminds me of the old story thats often used to demonstrate cause and correlation. Does eating chocolate really increase your chances of becoming a Nobel Laureate Prize winner or is there simply a correlation/coincidence between the two?
Whilst all increases in integrity for greyhound racing are very welcome, I remain sceptical about how influential the letter to which you refer has been within the IGB decision making process.
Ive looked back at the full letter youve taken the paragraphs above from.
If we are to believe that the IGB is indeed listening to the content of that letter, can we then expect they will also respond positively to the complaints it contained about increasing the entry fee and lowering the prizemoney, about penalising the suppliers of the raw materials when the IGB got 16 million from the Government, about where the money from the Hx sale has went too, about finding out why owners are leaving the Industry, about why patrons have stopped attending the tracks, about how greyhounds who test positive should not be allowed to breed, and about how races cards should be graded and filled at a central location?
And will the IGB simply have ignored the insults the letter contained such as the Greyhound Industry is on its knees and this action by you will only add to its demise or shame on you or you have an excuse each year for the abject performance of your Team or you blame everyone and everything for the disastrous decline in the industry?
Id really like to think that the IGB are listening to stakeholders and acting on their suggestions but as yet I would need to see many more of the above complaints being addressed before Id start to think that the increase in integrity around drug testing is as a direct result of a letter to the IGB (laced with a fair amount of insult) and not just simply a co-incidence.
However, I fully agree with you that this increase in integrity is very welcome good news for the Irish racing industry.
I really dont like the way society has gone where people try to silence people through social media everybody jumps on the band wagon and it is a form of bullying.
I believe Dave Cunningham has a right to express his opinion and at the end of the day he is trying to remove drugs from greyhound racing which is a good thing.
What he doesnt have is a MANDATE to represent the greyhound owners and breeders.
While many would cite grievance towards their organisation due to Anthony Walshs appearance on the RTE program last year, I would suggest that it should be that they have been running the IGOBF for many years now and during this period the IGB have removed nearly 50 million from prize money.
I find it amazing that greyhound owners and breeders are more aggrieved with Dave Cunningham and Anthony Walsh, and not the Irish Greyhound Board who removed nearly 50 million from prize money. I believe that greyhound owners and breeders need to develop a healthy disregard towards establishment when it is obvious that it is not in their interests.
I would be much more in agreement with Lyndas post where she states that she would be sceptical about how influential the letter to which you refer has been within the IGB decision making process.
This gets to the heart of the problem and looks for a solution.
Brian Loughnane Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2510 Dogs 106 / Races 6 04 Aug 2020 13:04
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Great post keiran and I agree with a lot of what you said but Dave Cunningham and that CLG Group are not working on behalf of the people their working on behalf of them selfs and it's all agenda driven and the people of this sport do not want their representation or anything to do with them, Right now this sport needs unity and as long as this group is involved it will never have that...
Dave Cunningham Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2081 Dogs 0 / Races 0 04 Aug 2020 20:55
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Brian, can you please tell me when have the greyhound owners ever stood side by side and backed each other in the last 50 years? You might have your own answer but the reality of it is they have never and never will stand up together because there is too many greedy F-----S in this game looking out for no one but them selves. If you or any others on here who constantly moan wish to unite the greyhound Industry please show us your talent and bring this industry together instead of always blaming others for not allowing it to happen, im quite sure the people involved in the CLG will not stand in your way or cause you any embarrassment while doing so, stop using excuses and blaming others Just go and UNITE this industry before the IGB have it fkd up completely. I wish you and the other moaners all the best.
Maurice Organ Ireland (Verified User) Posts 74 Dogs 0 / Races 0 05 Aug 2020 09:34
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That is typical of you dave to say that if I remember correctly I said the exact same thing to you not so long ago The IGB are loving this (hey lads the IGOBFs are at it again on the data let's spend another few million while they are not concentrating) thats our problem we are not focusing on the important issues which is going to be our downfall. I'm not going to get into who is and who isn't but I can say that the IGB are being contacted on a regular basis with all the different issues that are arising in the industry but to my knowledge the CEO of the board takes nothing into account what so ever in my opinion he is a dictator and doesn't care one bit for our industry. What we all need to do jointly is to get every greybound man woman and children to sign a petition to send to the new minister for agriculture stating our concern at the way the industry is being run and that a restructuring of the way its run needs his greatest attention
I`m very new to the industry but would like to think I have a serious passion for it and all the great people involved. I love nothing more than to see great dogs winning top events (for owners,trainers,breeder and families) and also watching my A4,A5,A6 dogs complete at there level. Derby some day :)
What I cant understand is the in house BS. Surely all you very smart people understand that this services no one and is going to kill the sport. I`m not for one minute saying that you all don't have valid points but would ask that we all unite. There is a great saying always surround yourself with people that are as good or better than you. From what I see we have the people please lets UNITE.
Title of this post is Ireland any good news and the answer is
Yes for the following reason
(A) IGB Announcements which help the integrity of our sport
1. IGB introduce a stronger test regime which is not only urine samples but now hair samples. This is welcomed by one and all in the greyhound industry. 2. IGB carried out 5,702 in its new state of the art laboratory in limerick with .3% adverse finding which is 15 in total 3. IGB issued exclusion orders under the greyhound industry act 1958
Please feel free to add more
Please send this message to all TD`s, Local Papers, facebook, twitter etc and above all the irish examiner.
UNITE against the Bullying and serious verbal and treating abuse of our people.
(B) SponsorShip
1) Boyle sports announce backing for Irish derby 250K price fund 2) Laurels sponsored for the next 4 years. Well done Cork 3) Dublin Coach 4) Larry O`Rourke Produce stake 5) JAG Buidling Services get involved in Kilkenny and Waterford 3 year sponsorship deal
I know this is just to name a few but if we come together and thank and embraced all sponsorship large or small. Post massages of thanks on there twitter, facebook etc this would only benefit us going forward.
Instead of letting the anti get to them.
Many hand make light work- UNITE and we will make our sport great
To end.
I like so many of you want the sport to be great and if we all pull together we will move forward faster. It wont be easy and at time you will have to give way for the betterment of the industry but your time will also come when your ideas make the difference.
UNITE AND MAKE OUR SPORT GREAT
A short message to Dave Cunningham/Kieran Boles
Hi Dave/Kieran
Can you help me on this
1. I don't know anything about the CLG - What is it and how many members? 2. I don't know anything about the IGOB- How many members are in it. I`m taking that it is the Irish Greyhound Owners Breeders
If you both wont mind expanding what is the purpose of each group it will allow me get a better understanding. In house problem are not good.
Also are the trainers not involved in any group?
UNITE and KEEP THE LIGHTS ON.
I don't know anyone on this site so I hold no agenda
I`m very new to the industry but would like to think I have a serious passion for it and all the great people involved. I love nothing more than to see great dogs winning top events (for owners,trainers,breeder and families) and also watching my A4,A5,A6 dogs complete at there level. Derby some day :)
What I cant understand is the in house BS. Surely all you very smart people understand that this services no one and is going to kill the sport. I`m not for one minute saying that you all don't have valid points but would ask that we all unite. There is a great saying always surround yourself with people that are as good or better than you. From what I see we have the people please lets UNITE.
Title of this post is Ireland any good news and the answer is
Yes for the following reason
(A) IGB Announcements which help the integrity of our sport
1. IGB introduce a stronger test regime which is not only urine samples but now hair samples. This is welcomed by one and all in the greyhound industry. 2. IGB carried out 5,702 in its new state of the art laboratory in limerick with .3% adverse finding which is 15 in total 3. IGB issued exclusion orders under the greyhound industry act 1958
Please feel free to add more
Please send this message to all TD`s, Local Papers, facebook, twitter etc and above all the irish examiner.
UNITE against the Bullying and serious verbal and treating abuse of our people.
(B) SponsorShip
1) Boyle sports announce backing for Irish derby 250K price fund 2) Laurels sponsored for the next 4 years. Well done Cork 3) Dublin Coach 4) Larry O`Rourke Produce stake 5) JAG Buidling Services get involved in Kilkenny and Waterford 3 year sponsorship deal
I know this is just to name a few but if we come together and thank and embraced all sponsorship large or small. Post massages of thanks on there twitter, facebook etc this would only benefit us going forward.
Instead of letting the anti get to them.
Many hand make light work- UNITE and we will make our sport great
To end.
I like so many of you want the sport to be great and if we all pull together we will move forward faster. It wont be easy and at time you will have to give way for the betterment of the industry but your time will also come when your ideas make the difference.
UNITE AND MAKE OUR SPORT GREAT
A short message to Dave Cunningham/Kieran Boles
Hi Dave/Kieran
Can you help me on this
1. I don't know anything about the CLG - What is it and how many members? 2. I don't know anything about the IGOB- How many members are in it. I`m taking that it is the Irish Greyhound Owners Breeders
If you both wont mind expanding what is the purpose of each group it will allow me get a better understanding. In house problem are not good.
Also are the trainers not involved in any group?
UNITE and KEEP THE LIGHTS ON.
I don't know anyone on this site so I hold no agenda
Many thanks for your link. Without knowing all the facts It seems that a lot of good people have wasted a lot of energy on both sides fighting with each other.
Sad reflections.
It looks from the outside that we are all in the same boat but the navigation is not working.
It is my opinion that we come together to clean our own house before we criticise others. Its easy to be a critic and very hard to come up with ideas that help the greater good which is our sport and the people in it.
As I previously stated I like so many people want the sport to be great and will work with everyone that wants to form part of the common goal. As everyone knows it will not be easy and the waves that face us on a lot of fronts are high but if we point the boat in the right direction we will win
Sorry for the waves but I dont want to make one issue more important than the other. Every one of them needs to be addressed but in order of priority and maybe with us forming groups to work together.
The topic:-" Ireland any good news? " - well we are back racing. but For as long as I have been in greyhound racing both in the UK and now here in Ireland, greyhound people have never stood together. Its about time people put their own differences to one side and stop bullying and arguing on here and learn to agree, its not rocket science. If I am not mistaken we all want what is better for the sport, a clean sport, a sport run by people that are not white collar workers but people who know and understand the sport from the ground upwards. So unless the people who are actually important, and that is the ones who breed, own and race greyhounds, are intelligent enough to unite you will not gain anything.
Do you have questions about greyhound racing?
