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Tesio in his own words chapter 1 - the problem with sex. After several pages discrediting the advent of artificial insemination because it is only natural procreation that instils will power and the determination towin in the offspring, he goes on t tell the story of mr ginistrelli and his successful race mare signorina who after matings with the most famous studs of her time had failed to produce a foal of great class ginistrelli booked her into the gun sire isinglass (fee 300 guineas fernando and barcia equivilant cost at the time) Circa 1904. On the way to the stud they ran into a third grade stallion who showed signs of great admiration for signorina and refused to go passed her. Ginistrelli a psychologist as well as a biologist quickly assessed the situation. They are in love. Let the ceremony begin . All the experts thought ginistrelli was an idiot but as a 3 year old the resulting filly named signorinette (little miss) was one of the most famous horses of all time when she won the derby and the oaks. a feat achieved by only four mares between 1780 and 1942. The next offspring from the same meeting was a dud . Tesio explained this away via Mendels law but cites the fact that the act of sexual intecourse can influence the vital force of nervous energy. Note Tesio in his own words pages 20 to 27 English translation. Breeding outside the square yes
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 17 Jul 2021 13:27
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Darren Leeson wrote:
....Love the way Wheeler bred Alera Bale...how does she come out on the 90+%?
Sorry, overlooked this question.
With outcrosses it's easy to identify linebreeding through different individuals, as most of an outcross' pedigree is foreign.
So with Alera Bale we not only have a 100% intensity through full blood relations Metal Jet and Gemdalina to Gorgeous Babe but they are also in a genetically viable position - the x path.
I've found with 100% intensities it's important that they are at least 3 generations back into the pedigree and can be effective up to 12 generations into the pedigree.
So even when you outcross you also linebreed again through different individuals. Linebreeding to the same dog doesn't create any new intensity unless in a genetically viable position.
Ive definitely found getting the first 3-4 generations as right as possible, has the most impact on the resulting mating.
I personally like to ensure I target getting my matches I want, right within those first 3 generations of both the sire and damline. I also believe a strong damline with a stud dog is just as important as the bitches damline, as there is a reason these great damlines have produced for generations.
In regards to outcrossing, many people Ive found, think they can just use any outcross sire to their bitch because all they are trying to do is breed out their inbreeding their bitch carries. Outcrossing has already proven to be a big key to reignite a line, as well as introduce strength and stamina, a brood may have lacked herself. Serious breeders would be well aware the huge benefits we reap from our outcross offspring, maybe not all in the generation we produced from the outcross mating, but for the generations to come from the outcross bitches we keep from the resulted mating.
This is where I think, now more people are starting to outcross, we might see some serious pups being produced, when line bred correctly back to their damlines strengths over the next generations.
This is where I think, now more people are starting to outcross, we might see some serious pups being produced, when line bred correctly back to their damlines strengths over the next generations.
I do agree with you but this has already been happening for years, its not a new phenomena
Apologize for the long list but it is merely a fraction of the success of using imports in our line and used judiciously with the local bloodlines that nick with each imported sire's bloodlines can produce some stellar results
https:/ CLICK HERE Haven't even really gone into Spiral Nikita or Flying Penske or Premier Fantasy yet
https:/ CLICK HERE https:/ CLICK HERE https:/ CLICK HERE And of course the dam of Darrens bitch via 2nd generation imported lines
https:/ CLICK HERE https:/ CLICK HERE The point is we need to diversify because over past generations we as breeders tend to go on fads with certain top sires, currently being Barcia Bale and Fernando Bale and for good reason because they can produce champions and a high percentage of dogs with an X factor
The point is we need to diversify because over past generations we as breeders tend to go on fads with certain top sires, currently being Barcia Bale and Fernando Bale and for good reason because they can produce champions and a high percentage of dogs with an X factor
Quote from nick sava although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
The point is we need to diversify because over past generations we as breeders tend to go on fads with certain top sires, currently being Barcia Bale and Fernando Bale and for good reason because they can produce champions and a high percentage of dogs with an X factor
Yep, or because those pups sell for more $$$$
A very big factor as well but wouldn't be if they couldn't produce either
Quote from nick sava although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
I have seen some incredibly fast bitches go to the top performing stud dogs and produce nothing. But breeders know the pups will sell for $6k+. That's not their fault, we all need a return on investment, if buyers are willing to pay without doing any pedigree research then let them pay.
The big question is - how do we know if the brood is going to be a good one? Most breeders would look at the racetrack record and times she ran as not negotiables. I'm not one of those.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 19 Jul 2021 02:27
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Hayden Gilders wrote:
Quote from nick sava although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
Those ways of the past with the wastage situation are just not on anymore are they ?
As Jamie says ped research is the key imo but is this the topic?
ps. Darren, I see your post yesterday has been deleted. I was going to quickly have a look last nite but the post was gone. Strange.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 19 Jul 2021 08:43
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Gee that's a poor interpretation of the post. Never mind Darren, how to kill a topic hey? We'll all move on. g/l with the matings you've got planned.cheers.
Yeah mate, outcrossing has obviously worked and been around for quite a long time, but as we have seen with the flooding of Fernando and barcia bales lines, we are starting to get a flooded stud market full of barcia, Fernando and Kc and all sons. I know not every stud dog is from these lines, but surely we need to look at the impact this may have on future line breeding if we continue to saturate our lines with Fernando and barcia blood.
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1954 Dogs 56 / Races 2 19 Jul 2021 09:39
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Jakota Rohde wrote:
Yeah mate, outcrossing has obviously worked and been around for quite a long time, but as we have seen with the flooding of Fernando and barcia bales lines, we are starting to get a flooded stud market full of barcia, Fernando and Kc and all sons. I know not every stud dog is from these lines, but surely we need to look at the impact this may have on future line breeding if we continue to saturate our lines with Fernando and barcia blood.
Need a Flynn, Get it gizmo, Moreira, Perfect Marshall, Blazin bomber, Brad hill Billy type to really kick a goal. Still outcross blood there but not KC, Barcia or Fernando
Gee that's a poor interpretation of the post. Never mind Darren, how to kill a topic hey? We'll all move on. g/l with the matings you've got planned.cheers.
FWIW Ryan I can only agree with you it certainly is a poor interpretation of the post given the heading and the content of the thread
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 19 Jul 2021 09:58
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Darren Leeson wrote:
Hi Ryan,
Been accused of promoting my stud dog, (which Im not - have Facebook for that), but its ok for me to free plug everyone elses on here??? Thought these forums were for sharing knowledge, which I do plenty of having bred a decent dog or two!
If you want to PM feel free. The forums loss!
Cheers!
Pay your way and you can promote to your hearts content.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Jul 2021 10:40
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Not looking to promote here. Thats what you and others dont get. It was never about the sire...rather showing what the dam was all about!
Cheers
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Jul 2021 21:00
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Jakota Rohde wrote:
Yeah mate, outcrossing has obviously worked and been around for quite a long time, but as we have seen with the flooding of Fernando and barcia bales lines, we are starting to get a flooded stud market full of barcia, Fernando and Kc and all sons. I know not every stud dog is from these lines, but surely we need to look at the impact this may have on future line breeding if we continue to saturate our lines with Fernando and barcia blood.
Yeah mate, outcrossing has obviously worked and been around for quite a long time, but as we have seen with the flooding of Fernando and barcia bales lines, we are starting to get a flooded stud market full of barcia, Fernando and Kc and all sons. I know not every stud dog is from these lines, but surely we need to look at the impact this may have on future line breeding if we continue to saturate our lines with Fernando and barcia blood.
DE JAVU Temlee Waverley Supreme
Graham
You are dead right, its been like that ever since I have been involved in greyhounds, you could probably add The Smoother to those two in that era and before that you had Black Top/Benjamin John/Main Issue
The dual or triple dominance comes in era's of approximately 6-10 years
And I daresay if some of the sires for which frozen semen imported here were actually here as live greyhounds like Spiral Nikita, Premier Fantasy, Flying Penske etc they may have been even a greater force for diversity
Bottom line is there are those local sires with diverse bloodlines who retired that weren't used as heavily/not as popular/ or didn't prodice a dominant sire line BUT still pop up regularly in pedigrees today like Elle's commando, Bright Ebony, Acacia Ablaze, Bekim Bale, Pure Octane, Dyna Lachlan etc etc as well as lot of imported sires that were deemed stud dog poison at the time like Balligari, Kiowa Sweet Trey, Barneys Alarm, Shamrock Point, Leaders Jester, Galilee, Flying Stanley & I daresay more recently a dog like Djays Octane (who was a leading USA Sire but not prolific in Oz) etc
Those type of sires are still needed because they usually contain sire lines and damlines lines that you can't get directly as a sire so you need them in your own bitchs damline or in the damline or sire line of one of these previously ignored sires
Breeders still need to use diversity...the old saying was use an import and burn a generation and keep the bitches to breed on with
Its easier said than done because it is so costly to do so but its still needed to keep the integrity of the breed alive and the gene pool diverse
Thats why we need breeders who take the risk with obscure and imported sires to preserve their damlines and produce the generational sires and dams for the future
The trick is to understand is how this blood worked well in the past and how it projects into the future that will determine what sire you use today for your broodbitch
That's the challenging part!!
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Jul 2021 02:13
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Hayden Gilders wrote:
Quote from nick sava although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
Is our problem being short on the latter?
https:/ CLICK HERE A home bred dog by Savva, a marathon open class racer. Was a unproven sire when Savva crossed with Hacksaw. So what was Savva thinking ?
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