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Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 20 Jul 2021 02:51
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Graham Moscow wrote:
Hayden Gilders wrote:
Quote from nick sava although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
Is our problem being short on the latter?
https:/ CLICK HERE A home bred dog by Savva, a marathon open class racer. Was a unproven sire when Savva crossed with Hacksaw. So what was Savva thinking ?
Now theres a real case of do as I say not as I do...
Quote from nick sava although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
Is our problem being short on the latter?
https:/ CLICK HERE A home bred dog by Savva, a marathon open class racer. Was a unproven sire when Savva crossed with Hacksaw. So what was Savva thinking ?
Tony Gallagher Australia (Team Member) Posts 5913 Dogs 12952 / Races 40209 20 Jul 2021 05:42
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Nick Savva an absolute genius in all aspects of greyhound racing. I was very luck to have had the opportunity years ago to occasionally check some of his dogs and spend time with him.
Quote from Nick Savva although I dont like to see the parents of any too closely bred, Im not a big believer in clever pedigree analysis. Just give me a good brood and a quality stud dog
Nick was spot on. The brood bitch is the key and this will never change.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Jul 2021 05:57
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Yes Sandro I agree Very bold and courageous of Savva, both litter brothers Westmead Lane / County X Hacksaw with repeat matings. Four litters in a couple of years Hacksaw maternal sire Crazy Parachute, a dominant sire of stayers Savva was committed to producing strength / stayers
If like to mention that all Savva dogs I saw race in the 70s were tops in the parade, conformation temperament were a standout with Savva dogs. I saw both Westmead Lane and County race. IMO County was the better race dog
Joe Baldacchino Australia (Verified User) Posts 561 Dogs 6 / Races 2 20 Jul 2021 06:54
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Mascot Miss to Hard Style Rico. Ancestors Path to Power and his full Sister Witch Magic, dam of Wicked Witch, on either side in 4th remove from memory. Loved it when I saw it.
Can someone do the link for me as its been so long that I've forgotten how.
Mascot Miss to Hard Style Rico. Ancestors Path to Power and his full Sister Witch Magic, dam of Wicked Witch, on either side in 4th remove from memory. Loved it when I saw it.
Can someone do the link for me as its been so long that I've forgotten how.
An interesting local sire in my opinion who doesnt carry barcia (does carry a cross of GWT) or Fernando blood, and has produced some nice pups, is Jury. By Cosmic Chief, who only sired about 900 named progeny, and Jurys dam, Velocity Shelba, carries 2 at least partial outcross sires within her first 2 generations, being by College Causeaway (Go wild teddy x College Tina (full Irish outcross) and her dam, Velocity Zoom, being by Flying Stanley (US bloodlines)
Jury carries some of Australias best bloodlines we have to offer, in Bombastic Shiraz, Brett Lee, token prince and Go wild teddy, all up close in his pedigree, so I wonder if given the chance, he may really stamp his place into Australian breeding.
Carrying as much outcross blood as he does may bode very well with many bitches being bred to in todays industry.
An interesting local sire in my opinion who doesnt carry barcia (does carry a cross of GWT) or Fernando blood, and has produced some nice pups, is Jury. By Cosmic Chief, who only sired about 900 named progeny, and Jurys dam, Velocity Shelba, carries 2 at least partial outcross sires within her first 2 generations, being by College Causeaway (Go wild teddy x College Tina (full Irish outcross) and her dam, Velocity Zoom, being by Flying Stanley (US bloodlines)
Jury carries some of Australias best bloodlines we have to offer, in Bombastic Shiraz, Brett Lee, token prince and Go wild teddy, all up close in his pedigree, so I wonder if given the chance, he may really stamp his place into Australian breeding.
Carrying as much outcross blood as he does may bode very well with many bitches being bred to in todays industry.
Velocity Zoom is Glen Gallon's sister, another sire who was an absolute gun dog and shunned predominantly by breeders probably because of his sire.
Interesting because Flying Ricciardo's mother, Megalodon is by Glen Gallon and breeders in NSW have taken to him quite well and he is ason of Barcia Bale
Flying Stanley very prominent these days with Zambora Brockie, Jury and now Flying Ricciardo
Interesting stuff
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Jul 2021 07:58
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Jakota Rohde wrote:
An interesting local sire in my opinion who doesnt carry barcia (does carry a cross of GWT) or Fernando blood, and has produced some nice pups, is Jury. By Cosmic Chief, who only sired about 900 named progeny, and Jurys dam, Velocity Shelba, carries 2 at least partial outcross sires within her first 2 generations, being by College Causeaway (Go wild teddy x College Tina (full Irish outcross) and her dam, Velocity Zoom, being by Flying Stanley (US bloodlines)
Jury carries some of Australias best bloodlines we have to offer, in Bombastic Shiraz, Brett Lee, token prince and Go wild teddy, all up close in his pedigree, so I wonder if given the chance, he may really stamp his place into Australian breeding.
Carrying as much outcross blood as he does may bode very well with many bitches being bred to in todays industry.
I have seen some incredibly fast bitches go to the top performing stud dogs and produce nothing. But breeders know the pups will sell for $6k+. That's not their fault, we all need a return on investment, if buyers are willing to pay without doing any pedigree research then let them pay.
The big question is - how do we know if the brood is going to be a good one? Most breeders would look at the racetrack record and times she ran as not negotiables. I'm not one of those.
I'm slightly negotiable. Fast bitches increase your percentages. I'd never use a bitch that didn't show ability or who wasn't closely related to fast dogs. Ability is inherited.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 20 Jul 2021 20:55
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Graeme, you really think the amount of time between a fast dog and a slow dog is inherited ?
We're only talking about a second between a really fast dog and a really slow one.
I seriously think nature wldn't deliberately differentiate by a second, I know you only said "...fast bitches increase your percentages...." but you really don't necessarily have to have a fast bitch either.
It's more likely environment, nurture and I know re fast twitch muscles play their part in a fast dog, but that can be passed down not necessarily from the mother. jmo.
I have seen some incredibly fast bitches go to the top performing stud dogs and produce nothing. But breeders know the pups will sell for $6k+. That's not their fault, we all need a return on investment, if buyers are willing to pay without doing any pedigree research then let them pay.
The big question is - how do we know if the brood is going to be a good one? Most breeders would look at the racetrack record and times she ran as not negotiables. I'm not one of those.
I'm slightly negotiable. Fast bitches increase your percentages. I'd never use a bitch that didn't show ability or who wasn't closely related to fast dogs. Ability is inherited.
Hi Graeme, I can only go on my experience. The first litter I bred, I had no idea what I was doing. And now that I know a little, I would never contemplate using a bitch like that because she was slow, terrible box manners and hit the wall at 380m. So it only makes logical sense to breed with the fastest bitches. Having said that, I recently bought a Mogambo bitch who is slow and can't run 425m. She's won 1 from 13. I'll definitely be breeding with her, that's the only reason I bought her. And the pups will be worth about $500 so I'll keep them all, like I did with the first litter. All the theories in the world vanish when you see with your own eyes.
John Charles Caulfield Australia (Verified User) Posts 396 Dogs 2 / Races 0 20 Jul 2021 23:22
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i will breed with an average bitch as long as she chases hard.cool colleen was one like that 4 wins from 36 starts,she had 3 litters and threw some fast dogs from them eg rickerty gates goty bgo,amigo two plus more.i have also bred with one of her daughters who was a non chaser but fast 1 litter 3 pups 2 winners the other one yet to start.so it is all a gamble.
Personally, I would struggle to breed with a bitch that can only run 400m, unless she was lightning quick over 400m and comes from a strong damline. To me, one of the most important things in breeding is getting a bitch from a damline that has produced for generations. Some damlines continue to throw group winners every generation since the 80s-90s if not earlier. Our hitch pietra allen, comes directly from the gold rush bale damline. She wasnt a freak on the track but still managed a win at the meadows over 600m in 34.40 which is not bad for a brood. But the fact her damline has thrown for so long, means to me she was definitely worth breeding with, being a half sister to Hecton bale.
David Brasch Australia (Team Member) Posts 844 Dogs 2139 / Races 9672 21 Jul 2021 02:01
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NICK Savva is god-like in greyhound racing in England and Ireland. Hes that good. Champions like Westmead Hawk (twice an English Derby winner), Toms The Best, Larkhill Jo, Staplers Jo, Westmead Chick, Phantom Flash, Sonic Flight, Flashy Sir etc all household names back in England and Ireland and now found regularly within Aussie pedigrees everywhere. Nick bred, reared and trained them all. While rummaging through my library recently, I came across the book on his wonderful greyhound racing career, written by Floyd Amphlett. The book goes through Nick's start in greyhound racing, his great champions, great friends and kennel clients, his training, rearing, feeding methods etc etc. But what fascinating most is his insight into greyhound breeding after 40-plus years and what he has to say is enlightening. He has never bred more than five litters a year, and generally the number is more like three or four. He says the winning formula is an understanding of breeding and bloodlines, combined with a system for producing and rearing pups to the highest possible standard. Savva says: Looking back, the biggest mistake I made over the years was in my choice of stud dogs. I used many inferior sires in the early days. Of course I didnt deliberately choose bad sires. It came about because when we first started out we couldnt make the kennel pay on its own. I decided to stand a few stud dogs to help pay the bills and felt morally obliged to use them on my own bitches. Although they all produced open race winners, with the benefit of hindsight they could not be considered great successes at stud. Nick says unproven sires must be judged on a number of criteria but he says pure sprinters and out and out marathon dogs dont generally make it at stud. He says from his own experience, dogs that stayed at least 550 yards (500m), have become the better stud dogs. I have also noticed that dogs who seem to be specialists on just one track seldom seem to make it, he said in his book. I think the same rule applies to potential broodbitches. If you think about it, how can a greyhound that refuses to give his or her best on all tracks be completely honest? He also gave two instances of what he feels has helped his own great racers become stud dog successes. My dogs are not given any substance to help enhance their performance. (And) Im not interested in training any dog that needs incentives to keep it chasing. I believe there are many dogs who failed at stud, not because they didnt throw speed. They failed because their offspring werent genuine enough to utilize that speed to the best of their ability. The debate over the importance of a stud dog compared to the dam is one of the oldest in breeding. Nick says: Some people try to suggest that breeding is all about the broodbitch. If that were true, how do the legendary sires emerge? I have seen great variation in litters, both in temperament and speed to which the only variable factor was the sire. Even my very best broodbitches have failed if the sire was bad enough. Physically they appeared fine, they were just slow. A good sire is vital. It is a lesson I wish I had learned years ago. Nick says he never uses an unproven sire. Another lesson he wishes he had learned years ago. Savva, however, will use his own unproven dogs when they go to stud because he is fully aware of their temperament. Of broodbitches, he says: I wouldnt consider using a broodbitch if I didnt like her temperament. In most cases, I tend to stick to those who have shown the most ability on the track. He says in the early days he bred with bitches he had not trained, even though they were good race bitches. It was often a disaster. He admits though he did not pick the right sires for them. I am horrified that I continued to persevere with a second or third litter with the same broodbitch when the first litter was clearly nowhere near good enough. He admits failure noticeably with his English Oaks winner Westmead Chick, saying the sire choice was probably behind it. The only other theory that I have heard is that she might have been too big to make a brood (32kgs). Apparently big bitches dont have great records as broods, though since there arent so many of them, its a difficult one to prove. He emphasized the importance of honesty in his bitches through the example of Westmead Flight (dam of the famous half brothers Sonic Flight and Larkhill Jo). Although Flight did not have top class pace, she was 100% genuine, absolutely fanatical. Westmead Flight is an important broodbitch in many pedigrees the world over as the dam of Larkhill Jo (damsire of Fabregas) and Sonic Flight (damsire of Bekim Bale). He says a broodbitch being mated for the first time should go to a proven sire. I know young stud dogs have to start somewhere, but use them on proven bitches so you can determine if they are worth persevering with. Nick says a minor indiscretion is not something that would concern him about a stud dog. He tried to buy Lively Band, sensationally barred from an English Derby final after such an indiscretion. He says his champion broodbitch Mega Delight (dam of champion Westmead Hawk) put pace into her offspring, but clearly the sires must have dominated in terms of racing distance. He says he has no problems with repeat matings. With the benefit of hindsight, what single piece of advice would have been most beneficial to me when I started out as a breeder? Probably not to use unproven stud dogs. I got away with it a few times, but I ruined many more litters along the way. He says his best broodbitches either stayed six bends (a distance) or would have done if they had not been hampered by injury.
There it is. Gotta do all 3, paricularly the first 2.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 21 Jul 2021 03:02
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David Brasch wrote:
He says the winning formula is an understanding of breeding and BLOODLINES, combined with a system for producing and rearing pups to the highest possible standard.
He generalizes too much and of course you can be attacked for questioning the article too much, because of who Nick Savva is, but a lot of his generalization on a sire can be debunked. And yes most will go on about always an exception to every rule. But, still I think his key point is in his quote above. One I agree wholeheartedly with...being, it will always be the right mix of bloodlines that will give you the very best chance of success!
Something Ive posted in outside / inside the square topic and most relevant to this post by David. That topic has a host of dogs bred obscurely, but most importantly containing the same mix of BLOODLINES! You can most certainly breed the same mix into a brood with an unproven obscure sire and get a fantastic result! Look at the pedigree of Gordette - sire a 3-400m dog named Ice Trucker that when crossed with an El Grand Senor brood. Ice Trucker sired a litter which won 94 races and $240,000 in prize money. Its also a proven Group 1 winning mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna / El Grand Senor!. Through a leading commercial sire!
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