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Gavin Kelly Australia (Verified User) Posts 397 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 09:31
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Hi Guys,
just interested to find out about prize money ect.
if you are lucky to get a great dog eg winning $200 k the trainer gets 50% and so do you.
is the $100 k tax free??
how many dogs can one have untill its considered a business or non hobby ??
Peter Gurry Australia (Verified User) Posts 9248 Dogs 18 / Races 25 07 Mar 2013 10:06
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Your 100k is Tax free as a hobby if you set it up with an ABN it is then taxed at 30% but you can claim back running costs but you must make sure your getting revenue in (winning) and not salary from your daily job as a clerk etc. Stick to the hobby side of things you'll find some professional horse trainers have horses in their wives names so they don't get landed with tax on winnings.
Gavin Kelly Australia (Verified User) Posts 397 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 10:09
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thanks pete.
when do they make you get an ABN , if you win a certain amount or if you have a certain amount of dogs?? do you know
cheers
Robert Morris Australia (Verified User) Posts 695 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 10:18
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Gavin, not an easy question. Try reading the following page on ATO website which might help.
If you train for other people and charge training fees then its more likely a business. However if you just had one dog or small number then probably just a hobby. It all depends on the extent.
Gavin Kelly Australia (Verified User) Posts 397 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 10:20
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Great Robert I will lokk into it cheers for that
Mark Schlegel Australia (Verified User) Posts 3168 Dogs 9 / Races 5 07 Mar 2013 10:25
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Very "objective" definition by the ATO.
Essentially, if you do not "reasonably" expect to make a profit......you can argue it is a hobby.
If you consistently breed good dogs and start making regular money they will be less accommodating.
Robert Morris Australia (Verified User) Posts 695 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 10:30
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Luckily for dog trainers very few make a profit so it's very easy to argue a hobby.
Peter Gurry Australia (Verified User) Posts 9248 Dogs 18 / Races 25 07 Mar 2013 10:33
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The golden rule with an ABN and to then claim Tax deductions on it it there must be a minimum $20K earned from that business. The rules were changed several years ago as pepole were setting up Companies with an ABN earning bugger all to offset other investments to reduce tax on those. The Tax department got wise to it and placed a $20k income provision. How do I know, I am a victim of such so I had to pay tax last year I said to my accountant now you tell me.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 07 Mar 2013 10:36
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What determines whether you are running a business is if it is being run in a business like fashion i.e. advertising, website presence, breeding and sale of progeny.
If you are racing as well as breeding then prizemoney can be deemed to be part of your income
Putting winning dogs in the wife's name who is a 'hobbyist' is not always effective. The late Les Samba in a famous court case with the ATO was deemed to have earnt income from his wife's horse's even though he maintained the money was earned from gambling winnings. He had to pay tax on about 1.2 million
Richard Gray Australia (Verified User) Posts 2231 Dogs 11 / Races 9 07 Mar 2013 10:43
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In Victoria, 5 dogs is classed as a "hobby" above that and tax aplies.
Mark Schlegel Australia (Verified User) Posts 3168 Dogs 9 / Races 5 07 Mar 2013 10:48
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Richard Gray wrote:
In Victoria, 5 dogs is classed as a "hobby" above that and tax aplies.
Not true. I have had up to 35 dogs here and have been claiming it as a business....but if I wanted to claim it as a hobby (as it is not my main source of income, nor do I reasonably expect to make a profit) I am allowed to.
FWIW, my accountant is a "dog man". He was one of Victoria's largest "trainers" a few years back. His operation was run by a very well known Lara trainer.
Richard Gray Australia (Verified User) Posts 2231 Dogs 11 / Races 9 07 Mar 2013 11:11
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A major feature of the greyhound industry is its hobby trainer basis. This is commonly an individual, a family or a small group of individuals as a syndicate who might own, rear, train or race anything from 1 to 5 dogs. The majority of the greyhound industrys participants fall into this category.
Taken from GRV site EXTERNAL LINK (1.1 introduction) Cheers. Rich.
Mark Schlegel Australia (Verified User) Posts 3168 Dogs 9 / Races 5 07 Mar 2013 11:22
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Richard,
That might be GRV's definition of a "hobby" trainer....but it's not the ATO's. As Sandro said....."What determines whether you are running a business is if it is being run in a business like fashion i.e. advertising, website presence, breeding and sale of progeny".
The number of dogs is only relevant in the sense that it would be pretty difficult to argue that you didn't "reasonably expect" to make a profit when you have 50 dogs! lol
I still have 20 dogs here, but as of next financial year I can no longer claim it as a business as I have lost money for the last 3 years. Not that it matters, as I am clearing out everything bar a couple of broodies and one 7 pup litter.
Richard Gray Australia (Verified User) Posts 2231 Dogs 11 / Races 9 07 Mar 2013 11:41
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As long as you are running at a loss, "its classed as a pretty crap busines!re ATO" and thus you run at a loss. Here in Victoria, I will go off the GRV site that i quoted where it clearly states that 5 dogs is clearly classed as a "hobby" which is what the title of this thread asks. Just answering the question and replying a fact from the GRV site. Cheers. Rich. PS. (If the GRV site is wrong,,, take it up with GRV)
Michael Barry Australia (Verified User) Posts 7402 Dogs 26 / Races 9 07 Mar 2013 19:48
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its best to go with the ATO website , they are the ones you will have to deal with, whats on the GRV website is pretty general stuff
we run our greyhounds as a business and yes it must generate x amount of dollars , , but breeding, rearing, racing its quite easy to achieve that ,,
but when you get a tax audit there is no use telling them you read the rules elsewhere, or your mate at the track told you , always be prepared before they arrive , lolllll
with the millions of dollars involved in greyhound racing im more than surprized that the ATO dont look at the industry a lot closer than they do ,
Darren Murnane Australia (Verified User) Posts 384 Dogs 21 / Races 40 07 Mar 2013 20:24
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Reason being Mick they dont look more closely is that most in the game dont make a profit I think !!!! I think they know that too !!!
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 07 Mar 2013 21:15
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michael barry wrote:
its best to go with the ATO website , they are the ones you will have to deal with, whats on the GRV website is pretty general stuff
we run our greyhounds as a business and yes it must generate x amount of dollars , , but breeding, rearing, racing its quite easy to achieve that ,,
but when you get a tax audit there is no use telling them you read the rules elsewhere, or your mate at the track told you , always be prepared before they arrive , lolllll
with the millions of dollars involved in greyhound racing im more than surprized that the ATO dont look at the industry a lot closer than they do ,
Mick
They are far more interested in the horse racing industry. More $$$ there and plenty of cash deals.
Hayden Gilders Australia (Verified User) Posts 993 Dogs 29 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 22:09
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
michael barry wrote:
its best to go with the ATO website , they are the ones you will have to deal with, whats on the GRV website is pretty general stuff
we run our greyhounds as a business and yes it must generate x amount of dollars , , but breeding, rearing, racing its quite easy to achieve that ,,
but when you get a tax audit there is no use telling them you read the rules elsewhere, or your mate at the track told you , always be prepared before they arrive , lolllll
with the millions of dollars involved in greyhound racing im more than surprized that the ATO dont look at the industry a lot closer than they do ,
Mick
They are far more interested in the horse racing industry. More $$$ there and plenty of cash deals.
horse owners (buyers & sellers) are currently being scrutinised by the ato to ensure that a reasonable level of income ie enough to fund their past time, from other sorces is declared
interesting also is that greyhound hobbiests may inadvertantly trigger capital gains that may interest the ato
Dean Townsend United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2104 Dogs 19 / Races 0 07 Mar 2013 22:23
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expensive hobby at that, dont think it will ever be anything more for me anyway )-;
Rod Strachan Australia (Verified User) Posts 3610 Dogs 46 / Races 16 07 Mar 2013 22:28
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Was talking to a trainer this morning who is a pensioner. The new rules about paying money straight into your account rather than cash at the office will be the end of some pensioners in our sport even though for them it really is a hobby.
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